SRT anchors

It's simple Tom, ANSI will most likely say "someone might forget to screw it tight". That's it. It is a shame we don't get the chance to use them in some situations, but it isn't that difficult to just use triple act. instead.
 
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but it isn't that difficult to just use triple act

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Not for ones that get their toys for free. When you start adding up cost out of pocket you could have about 6 screw gates to 2 tri acts.
 
Its funhy because I started out rock climbing where auto locks are considered dangerous because there is the tendency to not check and see if its actually locked because you just assume its shut. Isee no goode reason why they are outlawed for tree work. you should either take the time to check if its screwed tight or check and see if it actually locked. but the rules are rules.
 
its amazing how things have worked with no problem for many many years but all of assuden the so called "experts" that for the most part have never spent nearly as much time on a rope as most of us have say they dont work. I understand they dont say it in the thouse words but they do come up with some elabrit way of saying so.

Truth is from what I have seen if you bring back alot of the old ways of doing things you will find that a mix of old/new is the best. I I wish we could just tell ANSI to screw off.
 
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I wish we could just tell ANSI to screw off.

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Or triple lock off?


No. I think tri act biners are a good thing. I have a couple of screw gates, but I don't see a good reason to want to use them in any climbing application (SRT anchors included) over a triple auto lock biner.

I use a sweet chocolate colored screw gate biner for my camera that I keep on my saddle.


And I am going to embrace the probable change coming in regards to double locking snaps for safety lanyards.

Why wouldn't I want to be a safe as possible? My friends know me as someone who constantly has safety meetings.


SZ
 
I started out on rock and used screw gates. After being in the trees, when i do go rock climbing, i prefer to use tri-act biners. They seem safer to me.

But back to SRT anchors.....anyone got any more?
Anything wrong with a figure-8 with a soft lock and two half hitches?
 
The issue of how ANSI regards biners needs to be understood before off-handed accusations get bandied about.

When I read comments like, "...the so called "experts" that for the most part have never spent nearly as much time on a rope as most of us have say they dont work." I flinch...I've been active on the Z for probably ten years. There are other people on the Z who have spent enough time on rope to have a credible understanding of what goes on up there.

I think that if we went back and looked at previous editions of the Z we'd find that there are references going back maybe three revisions or about 12 or so years. Before that...anything goes...even non lockers/twist gates. As biners became more popular there were accidents from them coming open. So...the solution, find a better and safer way to stay hooked up.

Here's my evolution for rope connection.

-Flipline and spikes...no climbing rope
-Three strand hemp, not manila, climbing line and a non-locking steel snap.
-Stubai steel screwgate biner. I had taken some rock climbing lessons and was taught about using screwgates and to check them occasionally. The harness that I was using was a 4-Dee butt strap. One day I was about to lean back over my right shoulder to cut a limb with two sections of pole saw. Just before I rolled right I looked down and saw that the biner had unscrewed and dropped the butt-D on my right. After my butt-pucker released and I got my breath again, I reclipped the biner and snugged down the sleeve. As I was settling down I re-wound my mental video tape and can consciously remember screwing down the sleeve.
-I went to my local mountaineering shop and bought some Black Diamond biners with a manual third lock. The first opening action was a manual twist and lift. The next was spring loaded, the barrel of the sleeve was a twist lock. This was one of the first double locking biners available.
-When double autolocking biners came around I started using them. I've NEVER had one not work or come open while climbing. A few have been retired because of broken sleeves or getting bunged somehow. From what I can deduce none of them have been damaged during a climb just during banging around in my gear kit.

The muscle-memory that we build is made from using auto-lockers. I would not be a fan of allowing screwgates because that would mean a workplace where two sets of muscle memory would need to be developed.

After doing hundreds of competition and workplace gear inspections I can definitively say that there are too many climbers who don't know when to retire equipment that is worn or to not use equipment that is unsafe.

Sure...auto-lockers can get jammed, they are a bit more expensive, some are harder to open when wearing winter mitts but there are manufacturers who have mitt-friendly designs. In my years of experience hanging on rope I've found no reason to even consider using screwgate biners...they are unsafe in my book.

Good question about screwlinks [sl] v. screwgates [sg]. The threads on sl are cut fine and have the machining is much closer tolerances so there is lots of friction. It takes many more turns of a sl to open the sleeve. SG threads are coarse and the sleeve has a lot of slop in it. To feel the difference, grab either sleeve and wiggle it around. The sl will hardly wobble, the sg is likely to click a little.

In the treeworld I never want to see sg and I want to make sure that sl are finger tested before every climb and then about every 3-4 hours during the day. Once a 'feel' is achieved a climber may decide to stretch out the in-tree inspections.

Sl should never be tighten with a wrench more than 1/6 or a 'flat' beyond finger tight. If they are white-knuckled the threads get bent over and the sl will be sprung open which will ruin the sl.
 
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Tr33,

I hope that the utility pole was used as a photo-op setup and not to anchor a climber. The guy who taught me to climb 30 years ago was a Ma Bell lineman and he showed me plenty of rotten poles...not good anchors when they get all cracked up like that.

For a rescue anchor I would suggest strongly that you use a double tuck on that figure eight. F8's do not generate that much friction compared to other devices. A munter on a proper HMS biner will provide MORE friction with a single wrap. In a rescue situation there is a good chance that you'd be lowering two people on a single wrap...not enough friction.

Just nit picking here...I'd add a screw link in place of the aluminum ring because it's easier to setup.

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The utility pole is one of four legs of the outdoor climbing structure at Midstate. So yes it was actually used for an anchor.

I dont agree that a double tuck is needed. Its an access line anchor primarily, so there really isnt going to be two people being lowered, just the climber who is ascending the line. Even so, I strongly believe a single tuck is adequate although two wouldnt hurt. There is a prussik on the line above the eight.

I dont see how a screw link would equate to a faster setup. In my eyes it would be another step to overlook. Besides, opening and closing a screw link would take more time then feeding the spliced eye of the anchor through the ring. Screw links are nice but painfully slow to open and close.

Taylor, yes there was a stopper knot behind the Klemheist just out of view. Having looked at the picture, I realize it should have been much closer to the Klem. but I assure you it was there.

I prefer this setup, as it is not gear intensive at all in my opinion. Its fast and easy to set up, and fast and easy for someone to figure out should they not be very familiar with more complex setups. A trunk wrap is good, but I dont think its as easy to understand. I also dont like the idea of the possible rope abrasion caused from it. Additionally, many tree trunks have foreign material on them, whether it be nails, screws or what ever. I've seen all sorts of sharp edges attached to tree trunks. Yes inspection is key, but sometimes they are not always obvious and could be missed. I prefer the anchor to be static in itself.
 
Here is some reading about F8's and friction:

http://tinyurl.com/o2vs7g

http://tinyurl.com/q2b58o

I'm trying to find an article about the amount of friction that various devices can generate. Of course, things change when ropes change but in the article that I have buried somewhere there is a significant difference in how much an F8 can hold and a Munter. If the article is on my PC it's out of reach, the power supply is gone.

Knowing the history of the utility pole changes things. Even so, if there were an alternate anchor I'd use it all things being equal.

In most rescue situations using this setup the climber/victim would be lowered straight to the ground like a log. If for some reason a rescuer needed to be sent up both climbers could end up loading the F8. With a little bumping around the friction hitch could lock off so tight with the double load that it could be challenging to unload.

The reason that I suggest a double tuck is that in the chance that the belayer lets go of the rope during the excitement of a rescue the victims could be dropped or the load be transferred to the hitch causing it to jam. With more than enough friction in the belay this is less likely to happen.

When I rig a setup like this I put the eye of the friction hitch 'behind' the friction device to reduce the chance of the eye slipping down onto the gate of the biner.
 
There is actually quite a bit of friction in the system Tom. Even with a single tuck. Dont forget the amount of friction generated in the tree. 1,2,3 or 5 crotches.

The Klem has enough wraps where it can be loosened even after being loaded. Good call on the eye of the prussik being behind the device. I always just slipped it on after I installed the 8. A little bit of a tighter eye would be better.
 
Also there has been test that have found that you can snap the gate of a screw gate with a eight with almost no pressure. Not as easy with a screw gate.

Understandably everyone wants to be as safe as possable but I have never seen why there should be notable changes that effect everyone for others stupidity. If you are going to be hanging off a rope you might want to be mindful of your gear at all times.

Tom, didnt mean to sound as if I was bashing you directly not all. You know though as well as I do that not all things that you might find to be a good thing or a bad thing make it through the ringer to be past on a board.
 
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It's simple Tom, ANSI will most likely say "someone might forget to screw it tight". That's it. It is a shame we don't get the chance to use them in some situations, but it isn't that difficult to just use triple act. instead.

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Good answer! I imagine that this IS the reason!

-Tom
 
I am a big fan of auto locking biners. I love them, especially the wierd mickey mouse ones from isc. I most likely would not use screw gates if I had the choice, because auto lockings are worth the extra money. But as a matter of concept, I disagree with this rule.

This rule bugs me because its not based off of how safe the biner is, because a nicely locked screw gate is just as safe as a nicely locked triple lock. Its based off of the assumption of our stupidity. Its like "you cant use those because we know that your just an airhead treeclimber who we know cant remember to lock his biner, sorry". They may be right, but I find it kind of condecending to some extent.

Its kind of like the line crews around here not allowing their climbers to use a VT cause its too complicated for their simple minds. In this case the screw gate is too simple for our complicated minds. i think the screw gate is an elegant simple and safe design. You just have to use it right.

Likewise, I think "auto-locking" is a bad term because it implies that the biner is going to lock itself. which is misleading and ultimatly unsafe. Kind of like the term "safety chain"
 
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Its kind of like the line crews around here not allowing their climbers to use a VT cause its too complicated for their simple minds. In this case the screw gate is too simple for our complicated minds. i think the screw gate is an elegant simple and safe design. You just have to use it right.

Well put Bing.
 
Also there has been test that have found that you can snap the gate of a screw gate with a eight with almost no pressure. Not as easy with a screw gate.


Over the years I've read about tests and climbing accidents where a biner has gotten cross loaded in the f8 and broken. This is one reason that f8s have fallen out of favor and been replaced by other belay/rap tools.

I'd be surprised if there is a great difference in breaking strength of any biner in a cross loading setup.

As always...pilot error needs to be accounted for.
 
I'm all for saving money on non essential gear, but I count a descent descender as part of my SRT anchor/rescue point as essential. £100 or there abouts for a proper stop-go-stop descender that can safely lower 2 people is well worth the money if my @rse is potentially on the line.

The last thing I want is for some poor sod, scared out of his wits and pumped up on adrenaline lowering a seriously hurt me and the guy who is trying to stabalise me (or worse the other way round as i'd be more aware of what is going on!!!) on a fig8 or munter hitch.
 
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