Should have been butt tied...

The Germans must have watched too much Monty Python. I think they got their point across.
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Wow, it always amazes me just how lucky some of the people in these videos are. Time and time again, I see a video and expect to see an obit link in the comments.


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The chilling thing is that the fails that end with a fatality are rarely video'd and if they are, I bet they are not put out for public consumption.
 
Frax ,for real . You find the most outrageous video on youtube and apply it to a professional trade and it is a good teaching tool because "why ? " get the F out of here . You think gasi n his saw , if I woke up as a human and knew what that guy knows , I 'd go right back to bed ( why get up ). There is no bravo sh*t , he knows , she knows , really ? How about jaywalk videos where people get smashed . Do you learn from that ? That video and those people on that video are not tree people that I want to know or care to learn anything off of , If you are so hard up for reasons to do things right and that video did anything for you, than you are no better than the people in it . The short bus dropped that crew off at the job and the bus had tongue stains on the windows . You want to learn from that? PLEASE

sorry JMAN , didn'tmean to mix you up with the Colorado preacher .
 
There are all kinds of people reading and watching these posts. Newbies that haven't done much or any rigging yet. (me) So the most basic and obvious observations/lesson is valuable.
Thanks Jammin for takin the time.

Boy, some of the pros can be real cranky when they are wasting their time.

O
 
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butt tie mid tie ,get the f outta of here .Please. terible climber with a twin groundman lowering for him . Nothing to talk about here other than these people had no idea . You guys will find anything on the internet to point fingers at , the neighbor probally video taped it because they thought they were gonna die all day . Shame on all you trying to make a teaching point out of this , whats next? the guy running his foot over with a mower ? Please . Great teaching piece Murph ? JMAN , really , mid tie ? but tie ? huh ? really , the name of this post should have read "should have been a bus boy " JOKE . Love all you teachers , more like preachers another youtube tree people suck video . Rigging is the least of that guys problems . tip tie but tie mid tie wear a tie .......killing me

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I do not agree with you on this one Riggs.

I think it is a fine example of the danger of not thinking about what the peice will do. Not thinking ahead at all. I've seen plenty of new guys, just tie the rope to the peice anywhere, not giving a thought about the possition. Actually, I think some new riggers place it just like this guy did because they are worried it might slip off the butt, so they move it far from the butt. Then not even think about the groundman is going to need to let it run big time fast to get it away from the climber.

Showing a very new climber this would help in their teaching I think.

I don't see why you have a problem about someone posting this and saying it could be used to show new climbers.
 
Why the acceptance of such poor work? In the days before Internet and Google not knowing how to rig properly may have been acceptable. Not anymore! Before I went off the ground for the first time, way back in about '74 or so I knew enough about how to rig not to do what he did. the climber might not have gotten dusted if his groundie had let the piece run a little. that was taught to me before '70.

If I'm going to take on some project taht I don't know something about Google will at least let me know if I'm over my head. There is soooo much good information and training available...if someone is inclined to take the time to learn.

Sure...this vid could be used as a negative training vid but the same training can be done in a positive way using small pieces. One winter the Minnesota Society of Arborculture did a basic rigging class...indoors, using a 5" diamter buckthorn tree stuck in a Christmas tree stand. The pieces were cut using handsaws and hand pruners. The demo showed how the same piece could be rigged with butt, gut and tip ties. And...each would fall differently too. No one was exposed to danger and lots of discussion took place. This can be replicated by almost any tree company.

Why learn using the biggest tree around? Start small and work up.
 
Tom,

The only thing I am not understanding is your first sentence. The rest was understood.

WHO is accepting poor work? The climber himself? He might not be after that bump.
 
X...'accepting' his lack of knowledge and not understandin the risk he is putting himself. If he doesn't learn...or have lots of luck, he's going to get killed. I don't accept that sort of unskilled work. I understand that those people are out there though. Sad :(
 
Seriously Riggs, are you saying that people don't learn what NOT to do by watching videos like that? Maybe they aren't the badass top climbers you want to run with but that doesn't keep them from reading this forum and it doesn't make them mindless idiots.

The guy in that video made a big mistake but we have no idea what the circumstances were. He could be a new climber taking direction from a foreman, he could've trusted his roper to get the piece below him... although that seems unlikely. Point is, we don't know. Maybe he IS a brainless idiot.

You get to take these youtube videos for whatever they are to you but there are millions of people out there who take them differently, just let it be.
 
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Frax ,for real . You find the most outrageous video on youtube and apply it to a professional trade and it is a good teaching tool because "why ? " get the F out of here . You think gasi n his saw , if I woke up as a human and knew what that guy knows , I 'd go right back to bed ( why get up ). There is no bravo sh*t , he knows , she knows , really ? How about jaywalk videos where people get smashed . Do you learn from that ? That video and those people on that video are not tree people that I want to know or care to learn anything off of , If you are so hard up for reasons to do things right and that video did anything for you, than you are no better than the people in it . The short bus dropped that crew off at the job and the bus had tongue stains on the windows . You want to learn from that? PLEASE

sorry JMAN , didn'tmean to mix you up with the Colorado preacher .

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Listen up people, you guys are misunderstanding Riggs's posts, basically this is what he is trying to say - stick with it till the end - the last words are of great importance.....

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=enzNmWHLGhY



.
 
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butt tie mid tie ,get the f outta of here .Please. terible climber with a twin groundman lowering for him . Nothing to talk about here other than these people had no idea . You guys will find anything on the internet to point fingers at , the neighbor probally video taped it because they thought they were gonna die all day . Shame on all you trying to make a teaching point out of this , whats next? the guy running his foot over with a mower ? Please . Great teaching piece Murph ? JMAN , really , mid tie ? but tie ? huh ? really , the name of this post should have read "should have been a bus boy " JOKE . Love all you teachers , more like preachers another youtube tree people suck video . Rigging is the least of that guys problems . tip tie but tie mid tie wear a tie .......killing me

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I do not agree with you on this one Riggs.

I think it is a fine example of the danger of not thinking about what the peice will do. Not thinking ahead at all. I've seen plenty of new guys, just tie the rope to the peice anywhere, not giving a thought about the position. Actually, I think some new riggers place it just like this guy did because they are worried it might slip off the butt, so they move it far from the butt. Then not even think about the groundman is going to need to let it run big time fast to get it away from the climber.

Showing a very new climber this would help in their teaching I think.

I don't see why you have a problem about someone posting this and saying it could be used to show new climbers.

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Seriously though, I agree with Riggs,

we all like to think there is a great deal to learn from youtube and the internet, there isn't really.

Rigging is something that can't be taught, ok you can learn the basics, but thats it. You have to have a natural understanding or an empathy for working out angles, weights, forces, distances, ropes and knot tying etc. If you dont have this then dont do treework.

I've seen new climbers trying to set up rigging which is not just plain wrong but its blatantly apparent they have no inherent instinct for judging weights, angles, forces and distances and the most worrying thing of all is that they have pisspoor spacial awareness which in a lot of situations can leave them in extremely dangerous work positions. They also fail to anticipate what is going to happen when they make the cut.

This type of person - No matter how many times you tell them.......you just know in your head they dont get it and never will.

They never last in the job, they dont have the natural ability to work it out for themselves, they constantly need advice, 'where do I put this pulley?' 'where do i tie this branch off?' 'what do I do next?' lacking confidence in their own decision making process because they just dont understand what's going on.

A good trainee climber will always ask questions to begin with (and later as they progress steadily to bigger trees or more technically involved scenarios) but sooner or later they will start doing it for themselves, knowing they have an inate ability for the work. These are the people who should do treework (especially rigging)

Some of the others who aren't so fortunate to be born with the required natural ability just persevere regardless and battle on through failing to grasp the idea that they're not cut out for this type of job.
 
I have often lived by the maximum "if you can't be a good example to others , then be a warning"

When it comes to training, especially those with no little to no experience be very careful showing wrong examples or what not to do. There is plenty of good or proper info. Focus on that. The right way is not easy to assimilate. Do not confuse or complicate or overburden with the wrong way. Just as we must learn to do, we must also learn how not to do.

Focus on the positive and leave the negative out. Another reason to focus on right and show the proper as opposed to the improper is that for every safe way to rig a piece as was shown in the video, there are many more unsafe ways. Limit the info you give when training to the proper and you'll have more time to cover more material.

Training the proper way leaves the best impression. The only real value for a video like we are speaking of is to satisfy those the morbid curiosity of those who already know. Perhaps for an experienced rigger seeing the results of a decision they know poor can have some benefit. I am skeptical though. I have done some silly stuff, both in and out of tree work. I am glad not to have seen or experienced the results and would not wish it on another.

Tony
 
Nobody is saying you can learn rigging from a stupid youtube video... but you can and do learn things when you watch a screwup in action. Sometimes pros screw up and the smart ones want to review what happened, video makes that easy and it factors out subjective memory.

I'm dont think I learned anything from that mid-tie video but that's a damn good example of what NOT to do... I mean a really good example. Why does it have to be either/or? Some people can learn something, some people won't.


Happy Birthday Grover... and I totally agree that rigging is not something just anybody can learn... most of tree work is that way.
 
I pulled the near balance point training video because of the feedback that there was not enough clear warnings about the danger to the climber if the piece doesn't run. This and the broken leg video are prefect examples of what could go wrong. There is nothing like having the bodily reaction that these videos create to get the point across, and I plan on putting them in as very real demonstrations of the potential danger. No amount of graphics and voice over is going to have that much effect.

carrot & stick..
 
Just jumping on this thread after reading posts and watching the vid. That dude was not confident and knowledgeable in what he was doing, it has all been noticed here by the people who know better. Lack of PPE, stretching and cutting above his head, taking a piece too big for skill level, groundie not letting piece run ( if he knew to do so at all ), bad rigging point placement, lanyard hauled in positioning climber too close to spar whilst cutting ( again bad cutting form ). What can be achieved from watching this? Don't really know except that the dude is probably not tree work material. But who am I to tell him this, that is his choice. Grover said it best, some ( guys and gals ) are naturals and carry or possess the reasoning and instinct's that are necessary to carry out complicated rigging scenario's ( that not being one IMHO, very basic ). One must know if they fall into this category or bail before it's too late.
 
Tree guys getting cranky( really) , don't agree , lot to learn ,blah blah blah ( oh my ) . Talk about about wasting time Orbo ? how about the real pro that gave an estimate on that tree ,didn't get the job and look at the service they got . Not only did they learn ( home owner and crew) , but we as a industry are supposed to learn too ? Please . One mistake or two on a job , fine , let's take it home . earn and learn . That video was so bad it was sad . The cutting , climbing and rigging were bad , plus a few other things . Keep focusing on crap like this and the whole industry as a whole will never take a step forward . Keep learning off of idiots , I'll see you at the finish line . Done with this post , I don't need friends just six people to carry me when it's time . I guarantee that the guy in that video , time will be soon if he keeps that sh*t up . I'll bring an onion too that funeral, to keep from laughing. His eulogy will read ...should have been but tied ....
 
Nobody here has been claiming that professionals get 'learning points' from these things, Riggs.

Nobody on here is saying "Gee whiz. Look at that. Is that a good idea? Let's evaluate these tree guys and decide if we can learn something".

No one is going to argue your point that real pros lose jobs to these wanna bes and hacks all the time too. But that's not the very simple and fair POINT that seems to have your sweaty old undies in a knot over.

Once you get them washed and ironed out maybe it won't seem like such a big deal that some of us think these things are good iullustrative cautions for beginners.
 
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