Safety and liability

Why wont you answer two simple questions? I am being as genuine as I possibly can! If this is a proven technology that has been rigorously field tested I will not only jump on the RFID band wagon, ill drive the motherfugger to capital hill!

You seem to be very well educated on not only RFID, which before now I never knew existed, but chipper safety as well. I dont think they would invite a simpleton to be an exopert witness.

I really wish you would answer my questions man.

I want nothing more than to make our industry safer. All accidents are preventable. Thats why they are called accidents and not "on purposes".
 
BB et al,

Since we don't seem to be able to get any answers on efficacy/effectiveness of theses RFID chippers I have contacted the major U.S. chipper manufacturers and the Australian one that sells them. I will discuss with them and perhaps visit to see the chippers in action.

I will post my findings here.
 
Please say hello to Lucky for me at morbark TMW, and express my wishes to him for an early safe retirement with lots of satisfying fishing and hunting trips in his senior years.

jomoco
 
Please answer my questions Jomoco. Pretty pretty pretty pretty pretty pretty PLEASE?

With a cherry on top!?

1487300634_92c39eb68e_o.jpg
 
Here's a good way for you to test the efficacy of RFID technology BB.

Go into any major department store outlet in this country and grab any product they sell, stuff it under your coat and walk out the exit. The bells and sirens you'll hear are an indication of how effective RFID technology is and has been for the last two friggin decades my friend.

What this issue all boils down to is the current mentalities in this industry that say it's acceptable for these fatalities to continue as long as it's only dummies dying these gruesome deaths.

The reality is that everyone including me make mistakes every day, it is a human trait as old as the human race, directly responsible for a long list of safety devices like seatbelts, airbags and inertia chain brakes that even the very best and brightest well trained treeworkers among us are in need of at some point in our careers. That is why they are now an accepted industry standard, protecting both dummies and well trained professionals indiscriminately.

To let even the dumbest groundman on this planet die such a grisly death when the technology to prevent it is available, is a sad and embarrassing testament to the current state of our industry as a whole. I don't care if they are dumb, retarded, inebriated, cocky show offs, or illegal aliens, no-one should die that way if it is in the manufacturer's reasonable ability to prevent it with engineered safety systems at their disposal.

There are very basic moral and ethical principles of business that are being twisted out of recognition busily at work here in our tree industry.

Something stinks at the ISA and TCIA safety boards that claim to have treeworker safety enhancement as their primary goal, well as long as it doesn't offend their buddies and contributors at the big three chipper manufacturers to do so I guess.

jomoco
 
Really? REALLY!?

you're really comparing the sensors and systems of an RFID scanner in a controlled environment (a store in this case), that sees ZERO abuse, to how this system would hold up to the rigors of our industry!? that's the craziest comparison I've heard in quite some time. if that is how this system is being marketed and showcased to chipper manufacturers no wonder it hasn't been picked up!

what about the other question you have dodged 5 times now?

how many men, feeding a chipper correctly from the side, have been knocked unconscious and chipped?

come on man you have me begging here for you to answer extremely simple questions! these are your foundation arguments here, you should have the answers to them. or come up with new foundation arguments.
 
If you weren't so obtuse you'd know I've already answered your silly question BB.

I don't know how many have been chipped that way and neither do you.

I've personally seen lots of operators get clocked feeding a chipper, I've been nailed a few times myself.

But let's be specific BB. It must be your position that the three separate incidents that I've witnessed personally in which a second operator has saved a trapped/incapacitated operator from death/injury by quickly getting to the reverse bar, all deserved to die from their various mistakes had they been alone? That it's their own dang fault for making mistakes at the chipper alone? You're a poorly trained mistake prone dummy so sayonara sucker?

I've answered your questions BB, care to reciprocate in kind so we can all get a clear understanding of exactly where you stand on this life and death issue my friend?

jomoco
 
Every company that uses whole tree chippers needs to take item #3 in this NIOSH/FACE recommendation to prevent chipper injuries/deaths to heart. Mandating it as a strict company policy has saved three lives that I'm personally aware of since whole tree chippers came on the market almost 20 years ago.

All safety devices and controls, such as emergency shut-off devices, are tested and verified to be functioning properly before the chipper is used.
Workers are trained in safe work procedures, including operating wood chipper safety devices and safety controls. These procedures should be based on the manufacturer's recommendations for each machine.

Item #3 At least two workers are in close contact with each other when operating the chipper.

Workers wear close-fitting clothing, gloves without cuffs, trousers without cuffs and skid-resistant foot wear. Clothing should be kept tucked in.
Worker's hands and feet remain outside the infeed hopper.
Workers feed brush and limbs into the infeed hopper butt end first.
Workers feeding material are positioned at the side of the machine to allow quick operation of the emergency shut-off device and minimize risk of entanglement in branches. Because of differences among machines, the manufacturer's operating manual should be consulted for guidance. Safe feeding of some disc-type chippers requires the worker to be on the right side.
Workers walk away once the feed mechanism has grabbed the material.
Workers lay short material on top of longer material that is feeding or use a longer branch to push it through the infeed hopper.
Workers load small raked-up material such as twigs and leaves directly into the chip truck or in trash cans or bags instead of feeding it into the chipper.
Workers keep the area around the wood chipper free of tripping hazards.
Workers wear hard hats, eye protection, and hearing protection.

jomoco
 
I don't know about unconscious workers being chipped, I don't know anyone who's been knocked out while chipping.

My opinion is, most accidents happen when somebody tries to feed with their foot and a bootlace or top gets caught on a stub... us tree guys are so belligerent we'd try to yank our foot out instead of just banging the bar, no time left to react.

I'm sure some poor soul is knocked out and they die because of it but there would still have to be another factor causing them to go into the feed. You don't just fall onto the table and get sucked in.

I know you're into RFID Jomo, it's a good technology, but it is pathetically simple to defeat and idiots will do that almost every time. Training is the best safety measure, safety is behavioral. People who work a device as lethal as a chipper should be trained and they should be paid accordingly.

People will STILL die though. This isn't a safe business... thank god. I don't want tree work to become so safe and simple a McDonalds cashier can do it.
 
A lot of passion on this subject. And understandably so.

I feel very strongly about this also. Where I vary my thoughts is that I don't believe a whole tree chipper should EVER be hand fed. If a chipper is large enough to devour an entire tree, use a grapple feed system. Always.

If you want a hand fed chipper, get a smaller one. It cannot be denied that these injuries have increased in frequency with the massiveness and power of the whole tree chippers. By removing the danger; i.e., hand feeding, we should virtually eliminate any further accidents and still benefit from the efficiency of these powerful machines.

Dave
 
The point is that even though operators would probably still die with an RFID safety system on the chippers, the sheer numbers of deaths would be substantially reduced.

Just like chainsaw operators still get injured/killed operating saws with inertia chain brakes, but the numbers again are substantially reduced.

The basic principle/logic is the same.

jomoco
 
An excellent point Dave.

And it is true that the quickest most efficient tree removal operations I've worked on have all been totally mechanized.

jomoco
 
[ QUOTE ]
The point is that even though operators would probably still die with an RFID safety system on the chippers, the sheer numbers of deaths would be substantially reduced.


jomoco

[/ QUOTE ]

Maybe... maybe RFID is worth putting on chippers, but the bracelets will get worn only by well lead and consequently well trained crews. And those are the ones with minimal fatalities to begin with. All the others are gonna tape those bracelets to the bar and leave'em there.

I think a reduction is possible... substantial reduction? I kinda doubt it.

Training beats technology every time, plus it's an investment in people rather than gear. The workers get the benefit of training and maybe a cert. RFID will mainly benefit the people selling RFID.
 
[ QUOTE ]
Example: I am reaching over to lay some smaller material on top of some longer material going into the chipper, but suddenly a twisted elbow log makes contact with the spinning cutter drum and violently re-orients itself on the feed table along it's entire length in a split second, knocking me upside the head hard enough to render me unconscious and I fall on top of the material going into the chipper, but I am saved from injury/death by a functioning RFID chipper safety system.



[/ QUOTE ]

WHAT!?

You just reached into the infeed chute of a RUNNING chipper?! For all love, this is how people get killed and hurt. Stop, backroll the load, load up the second branch, duck back over to the side and foreward roll the load.

I read an article on shoplifting a while ago. In the article the thiefs told of many ways to cloak or mask the hang-tags from the sensors. Foil, bulky garments crowding two people through the scanner at the same time all worked.

Like Blinky says...it may work in a lab but what about in the field? How many lives would be saved if seatbelts and helmets were worn...like they have been required for decades? There are too many clever, stupid workers who would figure out a way to get around the safety layers.

If a non-American builder can come up with a system what is the problem? When it comes to safety I doubt that there are any xenophobes following either of these threads.
 
Hey Tom, if you go up this page about 6 posts theres a NIOSH/FACE recommendation on how to avoid chipper fatalities. I believe it's item #9 that states:

Workers lay short material on top of longer material that is feeding or use a longer branch to push it through the infeed hopper.


What!

jomoco
 
How about a cut/paste or link? It gets way too complicated to follow 'verbal' directions.

Short material could be layered on...if the operator stands over to the side not upstream with the brush sweeping along their legs.

A longer branch/push stick is only for the bits and bobs that are laying on the infeed chute.
 
[ QUOTE ]
How about a cut/paste or link? It gets way too complicated to follow 'verbal' directions.

Short material could be layered on...if the operator stands over to the side not upstream with the brush sweeping along their legs.

A longer branch/push stick is only for the bits and bobs that are laying on the infeed chute.

[/ QUOTE ]

Here yu go Tom.

http://www.cdc.gov/niosh/docs/99-145/

jomoco
 
Thx, Jomo :)

The push paddles that I used were made from scraps of plywood shaped to jam on the sides of the infeed chute so that the leading edge would only get about two inches from the infeed wheels. The paddles were pinned to handles using dowels or 'treenails/trunnels' so that no metal parts were used. I'd make up three paddles at a time and they would last many months before getting the corners busted off. Then...through the chipper! It's fun to chip up tools you know :)
 
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