Rope Twisting on Decents?

[Tr33Climb3r]

Ok one thing I have noticed just recently...when I got my poison ivy 150 foot with a splice in both ends from sherrill. Before that I had 120 feet of tachyon with no splices in it at all.

With my tachyon on my descents the rope would twist or hockle (sp?) up.

once i got my poison ivy with splices in both ends the twisting pretty much was none and i never noticed it being a problem.

just recently I put a pretty nasty cut in my climb line and had to remove about 6 feet at the end of the rope and lost the splice.

all of a sudden the twisting on decents is a problem again.

Anyone else find this or notice this?

 

[Ron]

Interesting observation - good for you for paying that much attention!

I suspect it's coincidental. I see no way splices could/would prevent twisting.

What kind of descender are you using?

 

[peder-d]

Normally splices in both ends is causing a LOT of twisting.
It's very weird, that you have had the opposite experience.

 

[TLHamel]

Splices have nothing to do with it. Hitch type; hitch cord type,length, and diameter; rope type; rope length; climber's weight; etc, etc. All have an impact on twisting during descent. I like to use a belay plate on the tail of my rope during descents (even short ones!) Pictured is the Yates "Belay Slave" or "Fire Safe". Rumor is they don't make it anymore. I haven't been able to find it for a while now. Keeps the twist out of your rope and saves wear on your hitch!

P.S. This is an old photo.

 

[Ron]

TLHamel,

I'd be very interested in your thoughts about the Belay Slave compared to something that is still available, say an ATC.

Thanks,
Ron

 

[SingleJack]

[ QUOTE ]
Splices have nothing to do with it. Hitch type; hitch cord type,length, and diameter; rope type; rope length; climber's weight; etc, etc. All have an impact on twisting during descent. I like to use a belay plate on the tail of my rope during descents (even short ones!) Pictured is the Yates "Belay Slave" or "Fire Safe". <font color="red">Rumor is they don't make it anymore.</font> I haven't been able to find it for a while now. Keeps the twist out of your rope and saves wear on your hitch!

P.S. This is an old photo. I don't use Sherrill "Grizzly" spliced products anymore.

[/ QUOTE ]

[ QUOTE ]
TLHamel,

I'd be very interested in your thoughts about the <font color="red">Belay Slave compared to something that is still available</font>, say an ATC.

Thanks,
Ron

[/ QUOTE ]

It seems the "Belay Slave" is the "Fire Safe" and, it appears, still available. At least, it's still on the <font color="blue"><u>Yates site</u></font> and a few suppliers list it at approx. $20, under the "Fire Safe" name.

 

[SingleJack]

[ QUOTE ]

...
I don't use Sherrill "Grizzly" spliced products anymore.

[/ QUOTE ]

TLHamel

I (maybe others, too) am very interested in why you don't use "Grizzly" spliced products anymore.
Should I retire mine??? But, I don't want to hi-jack this tread - pm me if you'd prefer.

 

[robinia]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]

...
I don't use Sherrill "Grizzly" spliced products anymore.

[/ QUOTE ]

TLHamel

I (maybe others, too) am very interested in why you don't use "Grizzly" spliced products anymore.
Should I retire mine???

[/ QUOTE ]

X2. Please explain ~ I'm using several!

 

[TLHamel]

[ QUOTE ]
TLHamel,

I'd be very interested in your thoughts about the Belay Slave compared to something that is still available, say an ATC.

Thanks,
Ron

[/ QUOTE ]

I would love to use an ATC, Reverso, Bugg, etc. However, I have not come across any that are sized for rope over 11mm. Too tight for the diameter of our climbing lines, and aside from that, the sharp bend at the carabiner interface creates way too much friction for a smooth descent.

 

[TLHamel]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]

...
I don't use Sherrill "Grizzly" spliced products anymore.

[/ QUOTE ]

TLHamel

I (maybe others, too) am very interested in why you don't use "Grizzly" spliced products anymore.
Should I retire mine???

[/ QUOTE ]

X2. Please explain ~ I'm using several!

[/ QUOTE ]

OOPS!!! Opened a can-o-worms there! It is simply my opinion and personal preference. I will gladly elaborate if you care to PM me. Let's not derail this thread.

PS. I edited my original post to delete the Grizzly statement (although it will still show up in the quotes).

 

[Tree_Machine]

Re: Rope Twisting on Descents?

[ QUOTE ]
Hitch type; hitch cord type,length, and diameter; rope type; rope length; climber's weight; etc, etc. All have an impact on twisting during descent.

[/ QUOTE ] They may have an impact on the twist, but they're not causing it.

Your belay plate is causing the twist, in the way it turns coming out of the device. The bend in the rope does not feed through as a bight, but a bight and a half. It's this half that gets ya. A full bight, or two bights, and you're OK. A bight and a half give you the beginnings of a helix, or corkscrew, and that's what it's doing to the rope.

It's kinda like how a Munter hitch will twist your rope, but a military wrap won't, and they look so much alike.

Figure 8's are notorious for twisting rope, same deal, a bight and a half, rolling laterally out of the device. Some guys tolerate this crap day in and day out. There is really no need to suffer in such an unnecessary way.

Your belay plate can be used differently, by running a bight through the device, keeping the plate horizontal, and then a biner through the bight; down, around, up and over, a flat sideways S and not a rotini. Your plate may travel up, but it will be stopped by your pulley. Of course, at this point you might as well use a simple chain link.

The ATC family members all have cable keepers, so they won't travel up and can only be used two ways, this way and that way, but you'll always want to use it this way, except for just trying it that way so you know what that way feels like. They can also be used SRT, DdRT and DbRT, very nice if you're one of those freaks who has to climb all three rope techniques and only wants one light, inexpensive device.

The belay plates are a large family of this this style of simple friction device.

 

[Tree_Machine]

[ QUOTE ]
...... and aside from that, the sharp bend at the carabiner interface creates way too much friction for a smooth descent.

[/ QUOTE ] What?????

TL, I have to point out, you have friction coming from your friction hitch, friction from your tie-in point, <u>and</u> finally friction going through a device that can be configured in at least three ways, off the top of my head. To say that the bend at the caribiner interface causes too much friction for a smooth descent, what your saying, really is, of the <u>remaining</u> friction that needs to be picked up at the site of the bend in the caribiner....." based on the particular way you are using of the descent piece, your impression is that the bend around the caribiner gives you less than smooth descent, but I can see it's other stuff, namely how you have your device configured that is the problem.

A 2:1 system with three independent sources of friction is much different than how these devices were designed to be used. You've got it as a fine-tuner backing up your hitch, but every abseil is a two-handed operation. Between that, and the twisting of the rope, you have a system going that is very light on the practical side. You have to do limbwalks walking backwards if you have to have both hands controlling independent friction sites. You're close, though.

[ QUOTE ]
TLHamel,

I'd be very interested in your thoughts about the Belay Slave compared to something that is still available, say an ATC.

Thanks,
Ron

[/ QUOTE ]

An ATC Guide, getting rid of the hitch, rig yourself a lockoff coming out of the belay tube, then you can get rid of 13 mm ropes. Then you can try 1:1 by rigging two parallel bights through the dual-slot device and then you wanna talk about smooth? Mmmmm. And kiss rope twist goodbye forever.

This is the same stuff I went through when I started using devices, like 15 years ago, and still today every time I try a new device. A system with annoying problems is not an ideal system, that's all I'm gonna say.

 

[Ron]

Tree Machine,

I have experimented quite a bit with descend devices trying to figure out why some twist rope and some don't.

I have found that it is not the bights that cause twists, but the twists in the rope necessary to install the descender. For example an ATC is a bight with no twists in the rope at all; it's just folded so to speak. It does not twist the rope. Compare that to a Grigri. On the rope it appears that a Grigri is just a bight also, but it's really a bight with a half-twist in order to lay the rope over the lip of the Grigri. I have seen Grigris make a mess out of a rope and other times it doesn't seem to do anything.

The rope through an Eddy is a bight with no twist at all and it doesn't twist the rope. A Petzl Stop forms two bights in the rope and no twists so it doesn't twist the rope.

I don't think you can have a 1/2 of a bight - it's either a bight or it isn't - how do we form a half bight? But we can readily form half twists. The rope coming out of a Grigri must take a half twist to pass it over the lip. We may not notice that when we use a Grigri, but that happens - a buddy of mine pointed that out to me.

Another example is a rack with a hyper bar. On a rack, the rope is weaved through the bars - hmmm, that may form half bights - anyway, if the rope comes out the bottom of the rack, twist is not imparted to the rope. But, if you take the rope back up over a hyperbar like on a micro-rack, a full bight is formed at the bottom bar and a full bight is formed at the top hyper bar, so since these are full bights that configuration shouldn't twist the rope, but it does. In order to go over the hyper-bar, a half twist is put in the rope and a rope threaded through micro-rack and over the hyper-bar will impart twist in the rope. A buddy pointed that out to me also.

 

[Tree_Machine]

Re: Rope Twisting on Descents?

[ QUOTE ]
I don't think you can have a 1/2 of a bight - it's either a bight or it isn't - how do we form a half bight? But we can readily form half full twists.

[/ QUOTE ]

See, a half bight is just a quarter bight doubled......


My silly humor just has to eek out now and then.

You're absolutely right, Ron. I just didn't know how to form the language to describe exactly what is going on, but you get it, you totally get it.

Thank you for describing it better than I could, but we're describing the same thing, an insidious behavior of rope through certain devices that both sucks and is tolerated by, well, by anyone who uses devices that twist rope. In my world, if a device causes rope twist, the device is not worth using except as an occasional, for specific reason, or in a pinch. If it twists the rope, I will not consider it a contender for canopy work, that eliminates many, many dozens of devices. I like using devices that suck, it gives a better perspective on the ones that DO do well.

 

[Ron]

[ QUOTE ]
I don't think you can have a 1/2 of a bight - it's either a bight or it isn't - how do we form a half bight? But we can readily form half full twists.

[/ QUOTE ]

What the heck is a half full twist? I need more coffee.

Good catch; that was suppose to be, "...But we can readily form half twists."

Ron

P.S.
I re-read my post and I kinda got the feeling it read a little gruff or something; I sure didn't mean it that way.

 

[Tree_Machine]

A half full twist is a more positive approach than a half empty twist.

[ QUOTE ]
I kinda got the feeling it read a little gruff or something; I sure didn't mean it that way.

[/ QUOTE ]

No, man, you're passionate about climbing, and you know what you're talking about, rock on.

 

[Ron]

[ QUOTE ]
A half full twist is a more positive approach than a half empty twist.

[/ QUOTE ]
LOL - see - I knew it meant something all along - I just didn't know what.

[ QUOTE ]
Post by Ron- I kinda got the feeling it read a little gruff or something; I sure didn't mean it that way.

[/ QUOTE ]

[ QUOTE ]
No, man, you're passionate about climbing, and you know what you're talking about, rock on.

[/ QUOTE ]
That's very kind. I get far more from TB than I can give back. I feel like a little tree in a huge forest.

 

[highclimber30]

I think it must have to do with the hitches used. I've climbed on a blakes, schwabish, distel and a vt. I find that the vt hockles more than any other that I have used...it is still a great hitch due to its speed...but hockles do suck. I don't know about all the belay device stuff. I only use those when climbing rock...although the figure 8 will hockle like a sob. on a side-bar, I just got my hands on a spiderjack from the company I work for and, no hockles, no excessive friction. awesome tool.

 

[TLHamel]

Re: Rope Twisting on Descents?

Tree Machine,

I really don't know what to say in response to your um... ramblings. So, I will try to communicate my feelings via Graemlins...

Thank you for enlightening me on the finer points of descending out of trees and ,more importantly, limbwalking.

 

[Tree_Machine]

Re: Rope Twisting on Descents?

I doubt I'm able to teach you much about tree climbing, TL. clearly you've been around the canopy a day or two.

Devices though, I may be able to offer something of value depending on the question, I enjoy exploring this stuff, but I am really picky about what I will consider using. There are so many devices out there. I learn a lot from you guys when there is direct feedback based on experience using the piece. I really appreciate your reports.