Chippers are kinda dangerous though...
Pruning (Mainly Deadwood and Broken) Bunch of Red Maples: Bucket or Climb?
- Thread starter JayTree
- Start date
Chippers are kinda dangerous though...
I have a "stick" pile that as they dry out I can use them for firewood. And dead branches and stuff are good as is.
Not the chipping isn't a great idea. Either way, easy enough for me to clean the mess and not an arborist.
With that many acute codominant junctions, it's 6 of 1, half-dozen of the other.
Larger pruning wounds will take more time to heal over and may not heal completely.
On the other hand, it seems like some of those leaders will likely die out from either poor vascular access and lack of canopy real estate, or sheer/break off.
I think it's justifiable to leave them alone (since they *are* high value, yet not specimen trees worth pruning), or remove them if there are high value targets underneath. You get more bang for your buck, which you noted was important.
Since you're spoiled with knowledge of trees, you may need to prune them for purely aesthetic reasons, so a complex work order may be in your future. Best to find the best arborist in your area and hire them, or request someone trained by them, whose fee may be a bit less... These trees are beyond written consulting, on your budget, so I don't think consulting is the way to go. The scopes are too lengthy and detailed, unless you generalize them all to "thin 10-25% (75% to be interior), reduce to subordinate codominant features in accordance with ANSI 300." Then, choose to cable and brace (according to ANSI 300), or not. No debris hauling.
Can you plant replacements now?
Larger pruning wounds will take more time to heal over and may not heal completely.
On the other hand, it seems like some of those leaders will likely die out from either poor vascular access and lack of canopy real estate, or sheer/break off.
I think it's justifiable to leave them alone (since they *are* high value, yet not specimen trees worth pruning), or remove them if there are high value targets underneath. You get more bang for your buck, which you noted was important.
Since you're spoiled with knowledge of trees, you may need to prune them for purely aesthetic reasons, so a complex work order may be in your future. Best to find the best arborist in your area and hire them, or request someone trained by them, whose fee may be a bit less... These trees are beyond written consulting, on your budget, so I don't think consulting is the way to go. The scopes are too lengthy and detailed, unless you generalize them all to "thin 10-25% (75% to be interior), reduce to subordinate codominant features in accordance with ANSI 300." Then, choose to cable and brace (according to ANSI 300), or not. No debris hauling.
Can you plant replacements now?
How close are you to the Berkshire's in Mass?
About an hour.
TimberJack
Participating member
- Location
- Westchester County, NY
southsoundtree
Been here much more than a while
- Location
- Olympia, WA
What did you find out about their references. Both might be good credible arborists.
By analogy, its like going into a car mechanic with a funny noise and asking what should be done, on a budget.
Two reputable mechanics would give you about the same general idea. The one might work mobile, and the other only in his shop.
You changed your request for bid or request for proposal midstream, sorta asking for apples to oranges.
If someone asks me what I can do with $1000 budget, I'm not getting into root zone work much, stem-girdling roots, etc.
If someone says they are committed to me doing $1000 of work, I'll spend a lot more of MY time educating them, and giving them options.
If they are going to spend $5000 with me. I have a lot of time for 'free'/ part of the service consultation, education, advice, thoughts for future planning, the 5 and 10 year timeline.
These two arborists have invested some free time in your trees, unless you paid for their site visit. Don't throw them out without reason.
How long have they been CAs. 1 month or 10 years?
By analogy, its like going into a car mechanic with a funny noise and asking what should be done, on a budget.
Two reputable mechanics would give you about the same general idea. The one might work mobile, and the other only in his shop.
You changed your request for bid or request for proposal midstream, sorta asking for apples to oranges.
If someone asks me what I can do with $1000 budget, I'm not getting into root zone work much, stem-girdling roots, etc.
If someone says they are committed to me doing $1000 of work, I'll spend a lot more of MY time educating them, and giving them options.
If they are going to spend $5000 with me. I have a lot of time for 'free'/ part of the service consultation, education, advice, thoughts for future planning, the 5 and 10 year timeline.
These two arborists have invested some free time in your trees, unless you paid for their site visit. Don't throw them out without reason.
How long have they been CAs. 1 month or 10 years?
I agree entirely. And honestly do want to go to one of them if I can as I believe both have doing it for years.
If I were to say no to either quote I'd sincerely want to ask if they'd like me to pay for the assessment. I don't like wasting anyone's time and sincerely appreciate the time they took. Although I only went to a second arborist because it was going on 2+ weeks and hadn't heard back from the first with assessment / quote.
They were thorough in their quote, describing the # of cuts required for pruning specific trees. So they seem to know what that are doing but i felt a second opinion on something like that was warranted anyhow as I learned more.
The second guy, who mentioned cabling (first did not) and said it would be possible to spend the day cleaning them all as a cost effective method for now. He is the one who wants to utilize a bucket.
I came here because I really felt it was time to reach out to group of experts and decide on either of the arborists I spoke with or if should go with someone else entirely.
Ultimately, my budget for work this year is in the $2k-3k range. It's a lot of trees and some definitely didn't grow well.
The alternatives I seem to have in terms of oruning are 1. Spend more on specific trees or 2. Do critical parts of every tree.
I'm not entirely sure which of the above is the better option with our limited budget this year. Ultimately, I know it's going to be a lifelong job to maintain the trees so trying to figure best plan.
My wife thinks I'm crazy to spend anything but don't think she recognizes that it does take care to keep trees, even mature (maybe even especially) ones, healthy and prevent early death.
They are really important to us and I have a tendency to over think things. As you can all likely tell from my long posts!
Thanks again for all the help.
If I were to say no to either quote I'd sincerely want to ask if they'd like me to pay for the assessment. I don't like wasting anyone's time and sincerely appreciate the time they took. Although I only went to a second arborist because it was going on 2+ weeks and hadn't heard back from the first with assessment / quote.
They were thorough in their quote, describing the # of cuts required for pruning specific trees. So they seem to know what that are doing but i felt a second opinion on something like that was warranted anyhow as I learned more.
The second guy, who mentioned cabling (first did not) and said it would be possible to spend the day cleaning them all as a cost effective method for now. He is the one who wants to utilize a bucket.
I came here because I really felt it was time to reach out to group of experts and decide on either of the arborists I spoke with or if should go with someone else entirely.
Ultimately, my budget for work this year is in the $2k-3k range. It's a lot of trees and some definitely didn't grow well.
The alternatives I seem to have in terms of oruning are 1. Spend more on specific trees or 2. Do critical parts of every tree.
I'm not entirely sure which of the above is the better option with our limited budget this year. Ultimately, I know it's going to be a lifelong job to maintain the trees so trying to figure best plan.
My wife thinks I'm crazy to spend anything but don't think she recognizes that it does take care to keep trees, even mature (maybe even especially) ones, healthy and prevent early death.
They are really important to us and I have a tendency to over think things. As you can all likely tell from my long posts!
Thanks again for all the help.
southsoundtree
Been here much more than a while
- Location
- Olympia, WA
Its not just keeping the trees alive, its keeping them strong and storm-resistance, particularly near obstacles like homes, outbuildings, important landscape, etc. Its maintenance like an oil change, new roof, mowing the lawn, cleaning your desk.
Sometimes it is good to get a day-rate for pruning if they come with a good reputation (not going to milk the job), tell them/ write down your priorities, your budget and for them to use their best judgment to do what can can in X hours/ X dollars. I actually work harder on hourly jobs, a bit, in that I don't stop to write emails, take extra breaks, run to a bid while guys do ground work.
Some do, some don't have a day rate. Its a remodeling project, not a demo. You learn what you really have as you access and touch/ look at the tree closely.
Absolutely nothing wrong with two or three opinions, especially after a two week contact-gap on a small pruning project (no coordinating crane schedules with utility line disconnects, etc).
Its nice to know you are getting other bids.
For what its worth, I offer free estimates, and many contractors do. A 'free estimate' is them telling me what they want, I tell them what it will cost. This is different than when I agree to come discuss their trees/ property/ listen to goals/ objectives, educate them.
If you got an education session out of what was agreed to be a 'free' estimate (no free lunch), and its worth something to you, everyone appreciates being compensated for their time and knowledge...drop them a check in the mail, and a simple note saying I learned x,y, z from you. Thanks.
Sometimes it is good to get a day-rate for pruning if they come with a good reputation (not going to milk the job), tell them/ write down your priorities, your budget and for them to use their best judgment to do what can can in X hours/ X dollars. I actually work harder on hourly jobs, a bit, in that I don't stop to write emails, take extra breaks, run to a bid while guys do ground work.
Some do, some don't have a day rate. Its a remodeling project, not a demo. You learn what you really have as you access and touch/ look at the tree closely.
Absolutely nothing wrong with two or three opinions, especially after a two week contact-gap on a small pruning project (no coordinating crane schedules with utility line disconnects, etc).
Its nice to know you are getting other bids.
For what its worth, I offer free estimates, and many contractors do. A 'free estimate' is them telling me what they want, I tell them what it will cost. This is different than when I agree to come discuss their trees/ property/ listen to goals/ objectives, educate them.
If you got an education session out of what was agreed to be a 'free' estimate (no free lunch), and its worth something to you, everyone appreciates being compensated for their time and knowledge...drop them a check in the mail, and a simple note saying I learned x,y, z from you. Thanks.
Thanks again for help. I sincerely might just do that for the arborist came around and I don't go with. What would you consider reasonable for 30 min or so (maybe an hour) of their time to give estimate and educate?
Anyway, you are right, it is about keeping them strong and storm worthy. Whatever helps keep them healthy.
I am glad my thought of utilizing a day rate sounds like a good idea. Ensuring the person hired good is part of this battle. Sure the people I've talked to our certified but aside from a couple of internet reviews (which are almost all just about removing trees) it's tough to judge.
TimberJack
Participating member
- Location
- Westchester County, NY
I've worked with certified aborists that couldn't climb a step ladder or prune for beans. What you need is someone with passion...
This is new to me. I have a live oak with crossed up 10" diameter branches, slated for some kind of remediation on June 13. The client is interested in grafting instead of doing nothing, or removal. How do I graft them together, or can you point me to resources on it?
guymayor
Branched out member
- Location
- East US, Earth
colb please share your math on the "save money by removing trees" approach. It does not add up to me. Also why would 75% of the pruning be interior? Did you mean exterior?
Timber, pruning before cabling is a "should" not a "shall". Looking it up is always a good idea.
Coincidence; I'm flying to Albany June 6 to visit family. Want a 3rd opinion (and specs)? See my website.
At Biomechanics Week we inefficiently hand-climbed silver maples to reduction prune until a bucket came. Then 2 guys did 7 trees in a morning. See the middle of the attached writeup of our study: "In 2019 and 2022 we will take increment cores to document the limits of decay from pruning wounds and measure the lateral branches below the specified cuts, to assess the trees’ response after three and six years. "I hope that the results of this project can affect the daily decisions we make while pruning, and how we train new arborists."Lewis said, "We'll do better work when we pay attention to tree growth, and rely less on arbitrary formulas, like the 1/3 rule." We expect the same results in Ohio that we typically see in the field, in line with Jason Grabosky and Ed Gilman’s reduction of Shumard oaks and live oaks in Florida. Sprouting from the cut surface was rare, with regrowth dispersed among interior laterals. The trees may reconfirm that 2007 study, indicating that specified retrenchment by European standards can regenerate smaller, safer, healthy, long-lived, low maintenance crowns."
Timber, pruning before cabling is a "should" not a "shall". Looking it up is always a good idea.
Coincidence; I'm flying to Albany June 6 to visit family. Want a 3rd opinion (and specs)? See my website.
At Biomechanics Week we inefficiently hand-climbed silver maples to reduction prune until a bucket came. Then 2 guys did 7 trees in a morning. See the middle of the attached writeup of our study: "In 2019 and 2022 we will take increment cores to document the limits of decay from pruning wounds and measure the lateral branches below the specified cuts, to assess the trees’ response after three and six years. "I hope that the results of this project can affect the daily decisions we make while pruning, and how we train new arborists."Lewis said, "We'll do better work when we pay attention to tree growth, and rely less on arbitrary formulas, like the 1/3 rule." We expect the same results in Ohio that we typically see in the field, in line with Jason Grabosky and Ed Gilman’s reduction of Shumard oaks and live oaks in Florida. Sprouting from the cut surface was rare, with regrowth dispersed among interior laterals. The trees may reconfirm that 2007 study, indicating that specified retrenchment by European standards can regenerate smaller, safer, healthy, long-lived, low maintenance crowns."
guymayor
Branched out member
- Location
- East US, Earth
1. Scrape the bark off where they touch.
2. Bolt them together.
guymayor
Branched out member
- Location
- East US, Earth
Please read the standard and note that just saying "follow standards" is NOT following the standards. You have to write the specs, as you started above. Generalized is fine, with sufficient details about sizes of cuts, cut locations etc.
And your diagnosis of the forks exceeds the evidence. Give the trees a little credit!
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Saving money by removing trees *or* leaving them alone, as compared to pruning, which precedes eventual removal. Pruning plus removal costs more than removal. If he plants, doesn't prune, and removes over time he will be engaged in *one* of the more optimal strategies for getting his urban forest in the form that he wants it. I'd leave those trees alone, plant new ones, and take one down every 5-10 years, if it was my place (usual caveats from looking at pictures...)
75% wasn't literal.
Based on appearances in the pictures, I kind of agree with some other guys about pruning in the interior. Exterior pruning down low will not broaden the acute angles. Up high, exterior subordination and reduction would likely be in order, and the mechanical returns on reducing leverage are proportionately greater there...
guymayor
Branched out member
- Location
- East US, Earth
That seems like a forestry approach, rotating the stock. I like to take a longevity approach.
"Eventual removal" is not a certainty. Definitely not in the owner's lifetime. Trees can gradually get smaller, and last indefinitely. So the math relies on some assumptions that may not apply.
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