southsoundtree
Been here much more than a while
- Location
- Olympia, WA
How easy it it to untie the lock off hitches/knots when there is a good load on it, say log weight?
OLDS-Overhead Lowering...
- Thread starter Tom Dunlap
- Start date
SingleJack
Participating member
- Location
- W MD
[ QUOTE ]
Since it works in both directions, it seems like it would be able to be used in the middle of the rope, with knotless rigging straps and an efficient mid-line knot.
While the ground crew is clearing the first piece, the climber can strap the next piece. As soon as the DZ is clear, the climber can cut and lower the next piece, rather than having to reset the rope.
This would spread the wear on the rope more evenly, too.
[/ QUOTE ]
Like the idea of mid-line rigging. Since, my work plan needs a tag line, I'll use a mid-line butterfly with slings & biners on both sides of the Belay Spool. The tag lines will simply be the ends of the lowering line - one line & NO knots ('cept mid-line). Nice tip, Sean.
Since it works in both directions, it seems like it would be able to be used in the middle of the rope, with knotless rigging straps and an efficient mid-line knot.
While the ground crew is clearing the first piece, the climber can strap the next piece. As soon as the DZ is clear, the climber can cut and lower the next piece, rather than having to reset the rope.
This would spread the wear on the rope more evenly, too.
[/ QUOTE ]
Like the idea of mid-line rigging. Since, my work plan needs a tag line, I'll use a mid-line butterfly with slings & biners on both sides of the Belay Spool. The tag lines will simply be the ends of the lowering line - one line & NO knots ('cept mid-line). Nice tip, Sean.
SingleJack
Participating member
- Location
- W MD
[ QUOTE ]
Sweet if you can post pics, and/ or a short video.
[/ QUOTE ]
"Alrighty then ... " I finally got a chance to try Tom's Overhead Lowering Device System (OLDS) with Sean's mid-line adaptation. It worked amazingly well. It even worked well using Tree-Master 3-strand ... (heavy-sigh) ... my Polydyne did not arrive 'til TODAY (one day late).
Here's the video. Since I used a helmet cam, the video is mostly extracted snapshots (for clarity) but there is one motion shot of some actual lowering. The groundie is "steering" the load by means of a block on a long sling around the trunk. It saved damaging the beautiful old Maple we were "de-hazardizing" and kept the groundie out of the drop zone.
From the video notes:
[ QUOTE ]
Credit belongs to Tom Dunlap for developing and introducing the concept of the Overhead Lowering Device System (OLDS).
Credit belongs to Sean Kroll for introducing the concept of adapting mid-line rigging to the system.
BMS Belay Spool (http://www.bmsrescue.com/blayspl.html) is shown as a bi-directional friction device adapted for use in tree work. This video demonstrates an intial trial run for controlling the lowering of branches by a climber aloft from either side of the device by mid-line rigging. The 'tail' of the rope on each side served as a tag-line for more precise ground control while lowering the load to the landing zone through a crowded canopy. While each load is being disconnected from the rope, the opposite side of the system can be loaded by the climber, thereby eliminating the wait necessary as with a single ground level lowering system. It is estimated that work efficiency was improved by a factor of 1.5 or better.
Since the device was designed for other puposes and not used by this climber before, the loads attempted in this video were quite light and easy to control. However, the device performed so well that it is believed it will perform equally well with much heavier work loads. However, the 'upper-limit' for loading of the device for this type of work is uknown - so considerable caution is advised.
USE THESE CONCEPTS AT YOUR OWN RISK!
One final caveat, the Belay Spool (like the GRIGRI) has no provision for a tether. So, it's easy to drop ... got the fumblies, when removing it, and almost lost it.
[/ QUOTE ]
Sweet if you can post pics, and/ or a short video.
[/ QUOTE ]
"Alrighty then ... " I finally got a chance to try Tom's Overhead Lowering Device System (OLDS) with Sean's mid-line adaptation. It worked amazingly well. It even worked well using Tree-Master 3-strand ... (heavy-sigh) ... my Polydyne did not arrive 'til TODAY (one day late).
Here's the video. Since I used a helmet cam, the video is mostly extracted snapshots (for clarity) but there is one motion shot of some actual lowering. The groundie is "steering" the load by means of a block on a long sling around the trunk. It saved damaging the beautiful old Maple we were "de-hazardizing" and kept the groundie out of the drop zone.
From the video notes:
[ QUOTE ]
Credit belongs to Tom Dunlap for developing and introducing the concept of the Overhead Lowering Device System (OLDS).
Credit belongs to Sean Kroll for introducing the concept of adapting mid-line rigging to the system.
BMS Belay Spool (http://www.bmsrescue.com/blayspl.html) is shown as a bi-directional friction device adapted for use in tree work. This video demonstrates an intial trial run for controlling the lowering of branches by a climber aloft from either side of the device by mid-line rigging. The 'tail' of the rope on each side served as a tag-line for more precise ground control while lowering the load to the landing zone through a crowded canopy. While each load is being disconnected from the rope, the opposite side of the system can be loaded by the climber, thereby eliminating the wait necessary as with a single ground level lowering system. It is estimated that work efficiency was improved by a factor of 1.5 or better.
Since the device was designed for other puposes and not used by this climber before, the loads attempted in this video were quite light and easy to control. However, the device performed so well that it is believed it will perform equally well with much heavier work loads. However, the 'upper-limit' for loading of the device for this type of work is uknown - so considerable caution is advised.
USE THESE CONCEPTS AT YOUR OWN RISK!
One final caveat, the Belay Spool (like the GRIGRI) has no provision for a tether. So, it's easy to drop ... got the fumblies, when removing it, and almost lost it.
[/ QUOTE ]
southsoundtree
Been here much more than a while
- Location
- Olympia, WA
Sweet, Thanks Jack.
Hard to decide what to get next, a hitch climber set-up, or the Belay Spool.
I can definitely see that's speeding up the rigging process.
Hard to decide what to get next, a hitch climber set-up, or the Belay Spool.
I can definitely see that's speeding up the rigging process.
- Location
- Retired in Minneapolis
SJ,
Why did you use a shackle and then a biner to attach the Spool to the sling?
It's soooo nice to see the vids. I started using the OLDS years ago...almost before digi cams were affordable so I don't have any pics of my setups. My film cameras were even a little too big to drag around the trees.
Why did you use a shackle and then a biner to attach the Spool to the sling?
It's soooo nice to see the vids. I started using the OLDS years ago...almost before digi cams were affordable so I don't have any pics of my setups. My film cameras were even a little too big to drag around the trees.
SingleJack
Participating member
- Location
- W MD
[ QUOTE ]
SJ,
Why did you use a shackle and then a biner to attach the Spool to the sling? ...
[/ QUOTE ]
Short answer: Habit
Long answer: That's a 'tree-saver' strap (i2i) that I've used for years. I keep two short, one WIDE and two 30' straps, in my rigging kit, each wrapped up with its own shackle. I've found the shackle useful as a multi-rigging point; the eyes & strap stay put with 'hook-up' & 'break-down'; even used the shackle for light lowering as an ersatz "Belay Spool". Just threw the strap/shackle & BS/biner in the canvas haul-up bucket. I did find (as I mentioned) with the lack of a BS tether, the shackle/biner combination made the hook-up a little less fiddly.
You're quite right, though! I could have eliminated one or the other.
Probably won't though ... ya get old ya do what ya done ... Habit
SJ,
Why did you use a shackle and then a biner to attach the Spool to the sling? ...
[/ QUOTE ]
Short answer: Habit
Long answer: That's a 'tree-saver' strap (i2i) that I've used for years. I keep two short, one WIDE and two 30' straps, in my rigging kit, each wrapped up with its own shackle. I've found the shackle useful as a multi-rigging point; the eyes & strap stay put with 'hook-up' & 'break-down'; even used the shackle for light lowering as an ersatz "Belay Spool". Just threw the strap/shackle & BS/biner in the canvas haul-up bucket. I did find (as I mentioned) with the lack of a BS tether, the shackle/biner combination made the hook-up a little less fiddly.
You're quite right, though! I could have eliminated one or the other.
Probably won't though ... ya get old ya do what ya done ... Habit
SingleJack
Participating member
- Location
- W MD
BTW, thanks Sean, Tom, for the excellent tips. I think the system is going to be a great tool. I've got a small oak to block down I think I'll try it out on that, next.
[ QUOTE ]
Sweet, Thanks Jack.
Hard to decide what to get next, a hitch climber set-up, or the Belay Spool.
I can definitely see that's speeding up the rigging process.
[/ QUOTE ]
HITCH CLIMBER? ... can you use a hitch climber on SRT?
[ QUOTE ]
Sweet, Thanks Jack.
Hard to decide what to get next, a hitch climber set-up, or the Belay Spool.
I can definitely see that's speeding up the rigging process.
[/ QUOTE ]
HITCH CLIMBER? ... can you use a hitch climber on SRT?
southsoundtree
Been here much more than a while
- Location
- Olympia, WA
I imagine that it would switch over from DdRT to F8/ hitch (I don't use a Revolver, just a biner) SRT, and back, as applicable. Still a minder pulley, even when not employed in its full fancy mode.
TC
Participating member
would anyone be offended if I was to describe OLDS as the most bizarre development in history of arboriculture?
could some please make it clear why I should consider using OLDS?
could some please make it clear why I should consider using OLDS?
SingleJack
Participating member
- Location
- W MD
[ QUOTE ]
would anyone be offended if I was to describe OLDS as the most bizarre development in history of arboriculture?
could some please make it clear why I should consider using OLDS?
[/ QUOTE ]
No offence taken.
Tom could probably offer the best answer to your question. But, I'm assuming that you've got a good talented ground crew. So, it may not make sense for you to "consider using OLDS."
However, most of my work is pro bono* where I usually only have one unskilled groundie who can barely release a knot-less sling and drag brush. A POW would be way beyond their skill level. Tom's OLDS allows me to control all the lowering from topside and get by without the risk of training, trusting, or waiting on an un-skilled groundie.
Then there's the efficiency - which you may find more interesting. Tom's OLDS seems to allow a climber to get more done in less time with one un-trained groundie. That's a big deal and is what made me "consider using OLDS."
I've just barely scratched the surface of it's potential. It will be interesting to see how far I can take it. As I said, Tom's had a lot more experience with the system. Perhaps he'll chime in with more details.
*Note: All real paying jobs are referred to local arborists.
would anyone be offended if I was to describe OLDS as the most bizarre development in history of arboriculture?
could some please make it clear why I should consider using OLDS?
[/ QUOTE ]
No offence taken.
Tom could probably offer the best answer to your question. But, I'm assuming that you've got a good talented ground crew. So, it may not make sense for you to "consider using OLDS."
However, most of my work is pro bono* where I usually only have one unskilled groundie who can barely release a knot-less sling and drag brush. A POW would be way beyond their skill level. Tom's OLDS allows me to control all the lowering from topside and get by without the risk of training, trusting, or waiting on an un-skilled groundie.
Then there's the efficiency - which you may find more interesting. Tom's OLDS seems to allow a climber to get more done in less time with one un-trained groundie. That's a big deal and is what made me "consider using OLDS."
I've just barely scratched the surface of it's potential. It will be interesting to see how far I can take it. As I said, Tom's had a lot more experience with the system. Perhaps he'll chime in with more details.
*Note: All real paying jobs are referred to local arborists.
southsoundtree
Been here much more than a while
- Location
- Olympia, WA
I worked off of a pulley yesterday with some good sized doug-fir limbs. Used the end of the rope, and a midline alpine butterfly, allowing me not to have to move all the way end to end. Pulley was set at about 50' for a canopy raise. OLDS would have done it all with a better ease. Rather than "trunk" wrapping on stubs for friction while Ben landed long limbs in a 6' wide area, I would have been able to avoid a bit of pitch on the rope, and the extra wear/ pitch of rope on bark.
The only thing that would have been a difficulty was that we had to yard up on the standing end to lift a snagged limb. This would not have been possible with a friction device set high in the tree, without moving up to the the working end.
A remotely set floating anchor for the OLDS system, would have been the best scenario, if I would have been able to get good crotches in a messy D-fir.
I will be buying one when I get the ducats. Hitch climber pulley can wait, as I've been moving over to SRT more and more.
The only thing that would have been a difficulty was that we had to yard up on the standing end to lift a snagged limb. This would not have been possible with a friction device set high in the tree, without moving up to the the working end.
A remotely set floating anchor for the OLDS system, would have been the best scenario, if I would have been able to get good crotches in a messy D-fir.
I will be buying one when I get the ducats. Hitch climber pulley can wait, as I've been moving over to SRT more and more.
SingleJack
Participating member
- Location
- W MD
[ QUOTE ]
... The only thing that would have been a difficulty was that we had to yard up on the standing end to lift a snagged limb. This would not have been possible with a friction device set high in the tree, without moving up to the the working end.
A remotely set floating anchor for the OLDS system, would have been the best scenario, ...
... I've been moving over to SRT more and more.
[/ QUOTE ]
Oh so true, no yarding the standing part with a load on the OLDS. However, the working end wasn't that far up was it? I had a few snagged limbs, Monday. But, I was usually above them and could haul up the working end. I did find that rigging out beyond the balance point resulted in fewer snags.
Anyway, "floating anchor for the OLDS" is a nice tip to add to the tool kit. It would save having to climb back up to de-rig the OLDS.
When picking an SRT system: pick one that let's you move up, down and limb walk without adding/removing components. It is a real time saver.
... The only thing that would have been a difficulty was that we had to yard up on the standing end to lift a snagged limb. This would not have been possible with a friction device set high in the tree, without moving up to the the working end.
A remotely set floating anchor for the OLDS system, would have been the best scenario, ...
... I've been moving over to SRT more and more.
[/ QUOTE ]
Oh so true, no yarding the standing part with a load on the OLDS. However, the working end wasn't that far up was it? I had a few snagged limbs, Monday. But, I was usually above them and could haul up the working end. I did find that rigging out beyond the balance point resulted in fewer snags.
Anyway, "floating anchor for the OLDS" is a nice tip to add to the tool kit. It would save having to climb back up to de-rig the OLDS.
When picking an SRT system: pick one that let's you move up, down and limb walk without adding/removing components. It is a real time saver.
TC
Participating member
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
would anyone be offended if I was to describe OLDS as the most bizarre development in history of arboriculture?
could some please make it clear why I should consider using OLDS?
[/ QUOTE ]
I usually only have one unskilled groundie who can barely release a knot-less sling and drag brush. A POW would be way beyond their skill level.
[/ QUOTE ]
that's tragic, they must be like a neanderthal man or something, my god, you really have to work with a neanderthal? in that case....OLDS is mos def for you my friend.
.
[ QUOTE ]
would anyone be offended if I was to describe OLDS as the most bizarre development in history of arboriculture?
could some please make it clear why I should consider using OLDS?
[/ QUOTE ]
I usually only have one unskilled groundie who can barely release a knot-less sling and drag brush. A POW would be way beyond their skill level.
[/ QUOTE ]
that's tragic, they must be like a neanderthal man or something, my god, you really have to work with a neanderthal? in that case....OLDS is mos def for you my friend.
.
Attachments
SingleJack
Participating member
- Location
- W MD
[ QUOTE ]
... that's tragic, they must be like a neanderthal man or something, my god, you really have to work with a neanderthal? in that case....OLDS is mos def for you my friend.
[/ QUOTE ]
Yeah ... that's him ... LOL ... works for firewood
... that's tragic, they must be like a neanderthal man or something, my god, you really have to work with a neanderthal? in that case....OLDS is mos def for you my friend.
[/ QUOTE ]
Yeah ... that's him ... LOL ... works for firewood
- Location
- Retired in Minneapolis
Grover,
I spent time writing out how I've developed the Spool into a rigging system that saves between 1-1.5 people/day from being on my payroll. How is that bizarre?
Take a bit of time and write out a reply explaining what you think is bizarre.
Bizarre can be taken in many connotations. I expect that you'll elaborate.
I spent time writing out how I've developed the Spool into a rigging system that saves between 1-1.5 people/day from being on my payroll. How is that bizarre?
Take a bit of time and write out a reply explaining what you think is bizarre.
Bizarre can be taken in many connotations. I expect that you'll elaborate.
- Location
- south carolina
i don't find it bizarre at all. i work with what can be considered a highly skilled ground crew and i have to say that they bump their heads just as often as anyone. not to mention the fact that if i'm in the air i know better than anyone how to hit the holes to get that widow maker down through 60' or so of remaining canopy.
SingleJack
Participating member
- Location
- W MD
[ QUOTE ]
BTW, thanks Sean, Tom, for the excellent tips. I think the system is going to be a great tool. I've got a small oak to block down I think I'll try it out on that, next ...
[/ QUOTE ]
Finally got to try the Belay Spool on 'blocking' down that small (14"DBH) oak today - just to explore some of the device's limits. Dropped several 4' sections onto some polydyne through the BS with and without tending the standing part, that is, standard butt-hitching rig except BS instead of a block & no POW.
Two wraps on the BS allowed the load to run a little too fast when untended. However, the fall could easily be controlled with one hand.
Three wraps on the untended BS stopped the load 'slowly' with very little run. Then, the load could be easily lowered by feeding in the standing part.
Just follow-up info ... FWIW.
BTW, thanks Sean, Tom, for the excellent tips. I think the system is going to be a great tool. I've got a small oak to block down I think I'll try it out on that, next ...
[/ QUOTE ]
Finally got to try the Belay Spool on 'blocking' down that small (14"DBH) oak today - just to explore some of the device's limits. Dropped several 4' sections onto some polydyne through the BS with and without tending the standing part, that is, standard butt-hitching rig except BS instead of a block & no POW.
Two wraps on the BS allowed the load to run a little too fast when untended. However, the fall could easily be controlled with one hand.
Three wraps on the untended BS stopped the load 'slowly' with very little run. Then, the load could be easily lowered by feeding in the standing part.
Just follow-up info ... FWIW.
southsoundtree
Been here much more than a while
- Location
- Olympia, WA
cool! Thanks for a real life example.
4' long, how thick? Weight guesstamite?
Thanks.
4' long, how thick? Weight guesstamite?
Thanks.
SingleJack
Participating member
- Location
- W MD
[ QUOTE ]
cool! Thanks for a real life example.
4' long, how thick? Weight guesstamite?
Thanks.
[/ QUOTE ]
200lbs +/-
cool! Thanks for a real life example.
4' long, how thick? Weight guesstamite?
Thanks.
[/ QUOTE ]
200lbs +/-
southsoundtree
Been here much more than a while
- Location
- Olympia, WA
Just ordered mine. Hopefully, it won't be delayed from the manufacturer, and will be here next week.
I know that it will be a good tool for me, as I like to cut limbs and lower them myself, or have the groundman catch the limbs, then I take the load, and he lands it.
Thanks the the tool tip, Tom!
I know that it will be a good tool for me, as I like to cut limbs and lower them myself, or have the groundman catch the limbs, then I take the load, and he lands it.
Thanks the the tool tip, Tom!
