Old School Rigging
- Thread starter metaspencer
- Start date
Christrees
Been here a while
- Location
- New York
You cinch it up good it won't. And obviously you don't want to cut near your tie. I always cut at least a ft away at least.
Sfoppema
Branched out member
- Location
- Central MA
Most commonly used rigging ropes are three strand natural crotch 1/2inch. I have a 3/4 12 strand (I think?) and that rope comes in handy big time on large trees with space enough to lay down large branches.
I have all the nice gear to make a complex rigging system, and started out thinking natural crotch was what hacks used but it is just is not true. Most of the time it's just not necessary to use block/porty set up and puts, IMO, unnecessary loading onto the tree. so called "point of cut" rigging where all friction is aloft at the point of cut. 50% less load on the tree compared to a frictionless block and porty at the base set up. Would never use that set up in a dead tree and I am climbing and rigging those on almost a daily basis (gypsy moth dead oak trees in central MA). Plus, climber can take over the lowering rope once saw is away and limb has been brought to a stop. Porty can't get tangled up in limbs. Takes a bit to get used to it, but I'm not going back. Always keep an extra on hand you need to retire ropes much more often, but they are cheaper.
I'll add that I typically will use block/porty on pine/spruce for rope/sap reasons plus typically many limbs easier to retrieve rope and lower with frictionless. Everything has its place and I don't leave home without all the tools in the box...
I have all the nice gear to make a complex rigging system, and started out thinking natural crotch was what hacks used but it is just is not true. Most of the time it's just not necessary to use block/porty set up and puts, IMO, unnecessary loading onto the tree. so called "point of cut" rigging where all friction is aloft at the point of cut. 50% less load on the tree compared to a frictionless block and porty at the base set up. Would never use that set up in a dead tree and I am climbing and rigging those on almost a daily basis (gypsy moth dead oak trees in central MA). Plus, climber can take over the lowering rope once saw is away and limb has been brought to a stop. Porty can't get tangled up in limbs. Takes a bit to get used to it, but I'm not going back. Always keep an extra on hand you need to retire ropes much more often, but they are cheaper.
I'll add that I typically will use block/porty on pine/spruce for rope/sap reasons plus typically many limbs easier to retrieve rope and lower with frictionless. Everything has its place and I don't leave home without all the tools in the box...
evo
Been here much more than a while
- Location
- My Island, WA
Remember you are talking to a 14 year old, he needs a mentor and not learning how to natty crotch online
evo
Been here much more than a while
- Location
- My Island, WA
Agreed, but I’d argue that natural crotch rigging takes ALOT more skill. Friction is the biggest variable, which can change with the same point as it wears in. Where as a ‘modern’ rigging setup takes many of these variables out of the equation. 100# on a porty and block is just 100# loaded into the system (not factoring rope and rope wear).
natty crotch is dependent on diameters, bark texture, how open or narrow the union is, species, and more. I can recall one time on a locust removal, using the same union, by the end of the day the high point was a quick and smooth as a block. When it finally came down to the ground not only did the lowering line burn through the bark, but almost a whole rope diameter into the sapwood. Literally black and polished. With the larger wood and or faster swing runs clouds of smoke were visible on the gin.
I’ve done this many many times, but this was one of the funnest/Smoothest removals so it really sticks out in my mind.
Last edited:
Christrees
Been here a while
- Location
- New York
Yeah I know...I forget sometimes.
Christrees
Been here a while
- Location
- New York
I agree with you... natural crotch rigging does take alot of skill and experience. Especially when your making your own crotch in the wood when blocking down. It has to be just right because if it don't feed your going to snap your rope. If it's a good size piece. I actually enjoy natural crotch rigging. I'm good and fast. I've just wanted to try all this new rigging gear out. Well it is new to me.
I probably shouldnt be learning how to rig online, most of what I learn is guidelines (Like carabiners having to be 3 action auto locking with a 23Kn MBS)
after the guidelines, im mostly self taught, although from my working alongside others, ive found there is no replacement for on the job training
after the guidelines, im mostly self taught, although from my working alongside others, ive found there is no replacement for on the job training
flushcut
Been here much more than a while
- Location
- Delavan, WI
But a technique worth knowing. I mostly use blocks for everything lowering related but there have been times when knowing how to groove a trunk and set lines saved the day. Natty crotch gone but not forgotten. That should be a bumper sticker.
Treezybreez
Been here much more than a while
- Location
- Lancaster, SC
There was a climber accident mentioned here on Treebuzz, where the rope popped out of the V and the climber fell to his death.
southsoundtree
Been here much more than a while
- Location
- Olympia, WA
It's silly not to stay on spurs and flip line while lowering off a spar with a questionable technique.
I munter-hitch down spars on a pull line, occasionally, always with life- support.
I munter-hitch down spars on a pull line, occasionally, always with life- support.
exactly, the double tie in rule should also cover anything that may whip the tree around
story time:
I was removing a limb on a small tree that I was removing for a friend a few months ago, was too small to climb but just big enough to be a hassle, set a line in a tree behind me, swung over, and put my lanyard around the smaller tree, and dug my spurs in
cut the limb off, it pinched my saw, so I gave it a shove, it flipped completely over, and landed on me (I think the tip was snagged and I didnt notice), if I didnt have that second tie in, I wouldn't have fallen to the ground but would have taken a hell of a swing back into the tree my main TIP was in, because the shock of a 40 ish pound tree limb slamming into me
moral of the story: dont be stupid, and engage safety squints
The good old V-crotch. An archaic technique that gets climbers crippled or killed.
TheTreeSpyder
Branched out member
- Location
- Florida>>> USA
Some things; best to study to understand not to invoke mostly (Dutch example theory).
Any kind of wood pocket gives more un-inspectable(beyond whiffs of smoke), thermally insulated rope glazing pocket , heat build up etc. as aggravating conditions and examples of what not to build towards. Also to make it worse should go deep in thick bark to get to well into meat of log, that is probably heaviest wood species then. And is unimagine-able (even to me) deep in pine sap cut on a hot day
(and i ain't known for smileys) !
.
Separate to 2 factors: Support of Load(cosine as down length of line) and Control of Load(frictions, nips and grips usually only from sine across rope not down length of rope)
>>so have now 2 measurements that cover all: 1D cosine of inline axis and it's non:sine of deflections to anywhere else
From a linear force input (anything thru a Standing Part pull)
Counter-Intuitively (benchmark points to remember as don't occur to ya Naturally);
The THEORY i think is: Linear surfaces frictions by distance as would think,
BUT eye lies, for radial surfaces compound frictions by DEGREE not distance.
>>So larger diameter host gives more spread out frictions/ not more total per turn( i think in 180 arc increments as Dr.Attway* paper shows and also to show a maintained linear force axis, just reverse of direction on that axis/opposing points pair).
>>Larger host does give more host body strength, softer rope deformation/more efficient rope strength and if metal host more heat sink(for the already wider diffused frictions); but not more frictions.
Theory is frictions by degree in radial, per the co-efficient of friction for the mated surfaces(polyester/wood, nylon/aluminum etc.).
Eye makes a lot of primal survival judgement calls at low intellect filtering before hands off to brain intellect, this is one place to purposefully interrupt what eye thinks it sees/hands to brain; with hard data, to effectively re-train eye in time. Mechanix of radial always different than linear as like reciprocal forms, Ancients tried to show i think because so powerful and counter-intuitive key to so many workings.
* The Mechanics of Friction in Rope Rescue: Stephen W. Attaway, Ph.D. (web archive)
my cheat sheet
Really just usual universal engineer's commons friction table for 2 flat/linear materials mated(polyester/wood, nylon/aluminum etc.)
>>converted to radial math with from linear frictions to radial
>>Compounded frictions with matching formulae virtually as to the compoundings of: interest, calc population growth, disease spread, water rings etc.
.
In linear faces rope pulls across host more, so more nominal/trace frictions by distance
>>but in 180 arc face are compounded frictions/MUCH greater frictions and nips as rope now seats fully to host(using both cosine and sine), not just dragging across/along a linear face(cosine across host, ONLY sine into host for seating frictions, nips and grips).
>>opposing linears give more nominal grip to host
>>opposing 180 arcs much more compounded grip.
ONLY arc uses major cosine force of load for seating to host, along with side deflected force sine that all ropeParts use to seat frictions, nips and grips as rope controls. Thus all other ropeParts (besides 180arc)only give nominal rope control by comparison. Most ropeParts do load support(cosine/major force) and host seating(sine/deflected force) as separate items, ONLY 180arc combines cosine and sine to give strongest controls of frictions, nips and in opposing multiples for grips on host from present forces.
Other linear, bent linear and 90degree ropeParts give MUCH more NOMINAL/ trace controls of same of frictions, nips and in opposing multiples for grips on host.
.
Just like stone bridge that cant have tension(or crumbles), miracle of arc allows to use all compression to get around cant use tension.
Rope Arc, same miracle in reverse/tension direction instead of compression; as can't use compression thru rope length. Stone cant use tension so uses arc, and rope cant use compression so uses arc are at the extreme opposite ends of arc usage, other materials falling in between these 2 benchmark extremes. The host shape is important to lend rope the arc architecture, that a rigid device doesn't need the 'molding form' during use (but might need in production of plastic, steel etc.). The word architecture is rooted in using arc(h) as key for worst positions of build in support bridges and ceilings, not linears; in the lessons from the Ancients.
.
As again, all geometry for physical support, and the extension to position to give support were required.
Displacement against physical space: linearly or to side is ALL cosine/sine respectively, just as
Displacement against physical force: linearly or to side is ALL cosine/sine respectively!
Displacement purposeful key term stolen from engine displace-meant of force.
Against also chosen key terminology, for rope is passive, doesn't start fight, just stands ground
>>against 'imposed' force, input to the passive/but responding rope support structure.
In sum ways, does seem complicated, but when realize rules all so completely and deeply;
becomes a simple concise lesson in absolute pivotally commanding points key to what is found all around.
Sine and Cosine as truly scaled rulers decode what i see, purposefully interrupting what eye tells brain that this is just like a linear friction, force etc. The eye can lie as quickly assembles in inherited primal life risk survival speeds autonomously in pre-processing before main brain computer processing/to react w/o brain lag time as survival shortcut , or would be no tricks or illusions for eye ! Magicians and other artists simply manipulate this value in entertainment, but best not to allow such fun in our work!
Any kind of wood pocket gives more un-inspectable(beyond whiffs of smoke), thermally insulated rope glazing pocket , heat build up etc. as aggravating conditions and examples of what not to build towards. Also to make it worse should go deep in thick bark to get to well into meat of log, that is probably heaviest wood species then. And is unimagine-able (even to me) deep in pine sap cut on a hot day
(and i ain't known for smileys) !.
Separate to 2 factors: Support of Load(cosine as down length of line) and Control of Load(frictions, nips and grips usually only from sine across rope not down length of rope)
>>so have now 2 measurements that cover all: 1D cosine of inline axis and it's non:sine of deflections to anywhere else
From a linear force input (anything thru a Standing Part pull)
Counter-Intuitively (benchmark points to remember as don't occur to ya Naturally);
The THEORY i think is: Linear surfaces frictions by distance as would think,
BUT eye lies, for radial surfaces compound frictions by DEGREE not distance.
>>So larger diameter host gives more spread out frictions/ not more total per turn( i think in 180 arc increments as Dr.Attway* paper shows and also to show a maintained linear force axis, just reverse of direction on that axis/opposing points pair).
>>Larger host does give more host body strength, softer rope deformation/more efficient rope strength and if metal host more heat sink(for the already wider diffused frictions); but not more frictions.
Theory is frictions by degree in radial, per the co-efficient of friction for the mated surfaces(polyester/wood, nylon/aluminum etc.).
Eye makes a lot of primal survival judgement calls at low intellect filtering before hands off to brain intellect, this is one place to purposefully interrupt what eye thinks it sees/hands to brain; with hard data, to effectively re-train eye in time. Mechanix of radial always different than linear as like reciprocal forms, Ancients tried to show i think because so powerful and counter-intuitive key to so many workings.
* The Mechanics of Friction in Rope Rescue: Stephen W. Attaway, Ph.D. (web archive)
my cheat sheet
Really just usual universal engineer's commons friction table for 2 flat/linear materials mated(polyester/wood, nylon/aluminum etc.)
>>converted to radial math with from linear frictions to radial
>>Compounded frictions with matching formulae virtually as to the compoundings of: interest, calc population growth, disease spread, water rings etc.
.
In linear faces rope pulls across host more, so more nominal/trace frictions by distance
>>but in 180 arc face are compounded frictions/MUCH greater frictions and nips as rope now seats fully to host(using both cosine and sine), not just dragging across/along a linear face(cosine across host, ONLY sine into host for seating frictions, nips and grips).
>>opposing linears give more nominal grip to host
>>opposing 180 arcs much more compounded grip.
ONLY arc uses major cosine force of load for seating to host, along with side deflected force sine that all ropeParts use to seat frictions, nips and grips as rope controls. Thus all other ropeParts (besides 180arc)only give nominal rope control by comparison. Most ropeParts do load support(cosine/major force) and host seating(sine/deflected force) as separate items, ONLY 180arc combines cosine and sine to give strongest controls of frictions, nips and in opposing multiples for grips on host from present forces.
Other linear, bent linear and 90degree ropeParts give MUCH more NOMINAL/ trace controls of same of frictions, nips and in opposing multiples for grips on host.
.
Just like stone bridge that cant have tension(or crumbles), miracle of arc allows to use all compression to get around cant use tension.
Rope Arc, same miracle in reverse/tension direction instead of compression; as can't use compression thru rope length. Stone cant use tension so uses arc, and rope cant use compression so uses arc are at the extreme opposite ends of arc usage, other materials falling in between these 2 benchmark extremes. The host shape is important to lend rope the arc architecture, that a rigid device doesn't need the 'molding form' during use (but might need in production of plastic, steel etc.). The word architecture is rooted in using arc(h) as key for worst positions of build in support bridges and ceilings, not linears; in the lessons from the Ancients.
.
As again, all geometry for physical support, and the extension to position to give support were required.
Displacement against physical space: linearly or to side is ALL cosine/sine respectively, just as
Displacement against physical force: linearly or to side is ALL cosine/sine respectively!
Displacement purposeful key term stolen from engine displace-meant of force.
Against also chosen key terminology, for rope is passive, doesn't start fight, just stands ground
>>against 'imposed' force, input to the passive/but responding rope support structure.
In sum ways, does seem complicated, but when realize rules all so completely and deeply;
becomes a simple concise lesson in absolute pivotally commanding points key to what is found all around.
Sine and Cosine as truly scaled rulers decode what i see, purposefully interrupting what eye tells brain that this is just like a linear friction, force etc. The eye can lie as quickly assembles in inherited primal life risk survival speeds autonomously in pre-processing before main brain computer processing/to react w/o brain lag time as survival shortcut , or would be no tricks or illusions for eye ! Magicians and other artists simply manipulate this value in entertainment, but best not to allow such fun in our work!
Christrees
Been here a while
- Location
- New York
A rigging rope? Or his climber?
Treezybreez
Been here much more than a while
- Location
- Lancaster, SC
His climbing line.
Christrees
Been here a while
- Location
- New York
Oh shit...ok yeah I never do that for my climbing line only rigging line. I always use a friction saver on a spar. But our old climber used to do that all the time.he was way old school.
Christrees
Been here a while
- Location
- New York
That's the main reason why I never climbed a few years ago. My bosses gear was 15 to 20 years old. Spurs and harness. Ropes were pretty fucking old too. Climbing on a blake's. Didn't like it. Never got interested until we met a climber with a hitch climber setup. Nice saddle . Then I started saving up buying this and that when I could. I still have alot to learn in the tree. Always room for improvement.
Sfoppema
Branched out member
- Location
- Central MA
Yes there are more variables and need to be capable of understanding them as you described. Groundies with finesse are a plus absolutely, but this is true for block/porty as well. Lucky to be working with guys that know what to do for the last few years.
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