New Technique for Tree Removal.

I've had logs milled and then stickered and air dried the wood myself with pretty good results.

This wiki has a pretty good description of what moisture in wood means.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wood_drying

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Wood contains water in two forms:

Free water: The bulk of water contained in the cell lumina is only held by capillary forces. It is not bound chemically and is called free water. Free water is not in the same thermodynamic state as liquid water: energy is required to overcome the capillary forces. Furthermore, free water may contain chemicals, altering the drying characteristics of wood.
Bound or hygroscopic water: Bound water is bound to the wood via hydrogen bonds. The attraction of wood for water arises from the presence of free hydroxyl (OH) groups in the cellulose, hemicelluloses and lignin molecules in the cell wall. The hydroxyl groups are negatively charged electrically. Water is a polar liquid. The free hydroxyl groups in cellulose attract and hold water by hydrogen bonding.
Vapor: Water in cell lumina in the form of water vapour is normally negligible at normal temperature and humidity.

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Another good source for understanding wood is this book:

http://www.amazon.com/Understanding-Wood-REV-Bruce-Hoadley/dp/1561583588
 
Thanks Tom.

There is alot of new info I ahve not seen.
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Even if your new technique has merit, wouldn't it make sense to avoid putting climbers in these trees until you have proven that there is no increased safety risk?
 
I don't like climbing dead trees and I really don't like rigging off them.
Maybe your idea has legs but I'm unlikely to ever try it for that reason alone.

As read, these thoughts came to mind (several were already mentioned):
- even if you disrupt the sapwood I think it will take a long time for the stem (heaviest wood) to lose appreciable weight. Only testing on live trees will tell. Those two spruce might be perfect for the experiment.

- the top will die first and that's where you need strength for rigging.

- dry wood has a higher rupture strength but when it fails, it fails completely. I like the idea of having some warning before an anchor breaks out.

- this will have less effect during dormancy and no effect during a freeze.

- you have to visit the job at least three times.

- with a good groundie, you can rig really heavy wood as easily as lighter wood. Making the wood lighter doesn't yield a very big advantage.

I don't see any reason why you should stop looking into this, I'm just not on board with this one. You clearly have an innovative mind. Put some research behind it and you'll persuade a lot more folks.
 
Understanding Wood by Hoadley is a totally worthwhile book for arborists even though it's about woodworking. Tons of great info on wood, tree growth and stuff with superior presentation. Worth every penny.
 
Hey rereading the post and Jeff made me think some more about frozen wood and wet wood strength.

That wood be an interesting study with some serious data for the memory bank when working cold winters.

Off the top of my head ice is stronger than water and so it would make sense that frozen wood should also be stronger.

Ice is solid. Water is fluid.
What do you think of that thought process?
Is that in the right direction?
 
Point taken. Safety is the main concern.
What is it that you feel is not safe?
We climb alot of unsafe trees.
I climbed and dropped another girdled Spruce(White) last week.
F'n clothes line.
The wood was super light, zero moisture.
I was able to dead lift 30' of log tapering from 12" to 24" at the light end. Mb what could have been 1500lbs only felt like600 or 700lbs. BTW I lifted it twice just to make sure Of the experience.
On the spur up I approached the top 1/3 it felt like a dead tree but hard to wiggle and when Scott pulled the top off into the drop zone the tree did not wiggle a bit.
All of this was a bit weird but in the end lighter is really cool and the strenght of dry wood cannot be argued but the dynamic bending strength of wood I am trying to understood(lotsa variables).
The recent post by Tom Dunlop at wiki will bring even more to light. Pun not intended.
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From my experiences, frozen wood is more brittle, and you have to be mindful of hinge strength. Best to test the hinge strength on smaller, less crucial limbs before making any 'money cuts' in super cold weather.
 
I girdled some trees for spacing thinking they'd be dry and ready for a burn pile when I was. A big wind came through 9 months later, half my trees went down and the girdled ones all snapped at the girdle. That was a hazard I created and hence liable. My property no problem but I don't think I could leave that on someone else's property.
 
I have left REALLY large logs to set on a client's property a few days or a week to lighten up so I could lift them with our loader, but I can't find any reason to think a dried out tree is going to be safer to take down than a live tree. Regardless of if it's lighter or not... Use a crane if it's that big a deal.
 
If you were asking me why I thought it was unsafe, I don't think I put it that way... It's definitely not safe to wreck trees.

Why do I not like dead trees? I was in one that fell... and it hurt pretty bad so I'm prejudiced.
 
[ QUOTE ]
From my experiences, frozen wood is more brittle, and you have to be mindful of hinge strength. Best to test the hinge strength on smaller, less crucial limbs before making any 'money cuts' in super cold weather.

[/ QUOTE ]

Frozen wood is defnitely more brittle from my experience. But I can't quantify it. I just don't trust a tie in point at -15 deg C the same as I do when its decent temperatures. We are adding a significant new variable to what might otherwise be a familiar situation.

We face a high number of variables in every tree we climb. Experience with similar trees in similar situations gives us a basis for making solid decisions about what we can and can't do.
When we introduce yet new variables be it extreme cold or girdling we are less sure of outcomes. Dead trees are already more unpredictable than live ones.Do we really want to go there?

Intriguing idea. But it is too risky in my opinion.
 
How is a dead tree more unpredictable or more dangerous.

I will experiment tomorrow have some early morning felling to do and will try to match up a few pieces for snapping at cold and snapping after I bring them inside and allow them to warm up.

My best guess and wager is on frozen being stronger. Just based on ice being stronger than water. Skate across a frozen pond or swim it.

On the same note drier frozen trees should be stronger because there will be little or less ice/moisture adding to the shearing of wood fibres.

Hygroscopic water and free water in the wiki article and the dynamic loading strength of wood is all at play here.


Till then its Risky Business as usual.
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Another point is when a tree is girdled like I have done with the removal of a few rings of xylem it seems to me the wood dries from the inside out not from the outside in like is experienced with cut lumber.
It is like a wick in lamp oil when you run out of oil it is the wick that is last to run out. Leaves, stems and branches should be the last to loose moisture/free water in that order as the last of the free water is transpired.

I have to make it clear the drying process of droughted trees and girdled trees is not the same from my experience thus far. species and enviro are to weigh in as well.

Love the light weight and much less resin with the last few girdled conifers. Big time selling point for this technique for all those handling heavy sappy conifer.

Your risky is my effeciencies.
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Cheers
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[ QUOTE ]
My best guess and wager is on frozen being stronger. Just based on ice being stronger than water. Skate across a frozen pond or swim it.

[/ QUOTE ]

Seems a fairly subjective statement to make.

Stronger in compression? Maybe, stronger in tension? Definitely not.

Water doesn't break, ice does.
 
Stronger is a term that can mean a lot of things.
My understanding is that frozen wood generally has a high rupture strength. But that's not the whole story.
That higher strength comes with the tradeoff that rather than failing progressively and giving the rigger some warning, OT will fail suddenly and completely.

I do know that if you wanna split wood, it's easiest to split when it's frozen.
 
Wait a minute, water flows and when containerized add strenght or rupture or shear the container with the addition of force/pressure. Water is more easily forced then a solid.
Skate or swim? Which offers the greater resistance.
Ask the Titanic

Ice when containerized or like it is hygroscopically will strengthen wood.
Chemistry, Physics, Botany are at play.
Am I wrong? If I am please set me straight.
Tension and Compression is force applied. I missed your point some where.
 
I can't argue it in terms of science because I don't know of any studies, but I'm sure studies are out there.

I can argue that when you're rigging trees a lot more is in play than breaking strength. Maybe frozen wood is stronger, but it's also more brittle. It doesn't have as much bending strength.
It depends on how you load it as to what kind of strength is most desirable.
 
I am not sure about frozen wood.
And the more I think about it and the memory starts to work thru all those high crown pruning and removals where the temps minus 30 celsius or minus 2o F I think I experienced less deflection anyways.

I get the bending and dynamic rigging.
Still if I have to cut, handle and chuck limbs and wood all day, I like that it can be lighter.
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Hard to find any data on frozen wood strength.This is interesting and applicable.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pykrete
 
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