Min Strenght of components.

"The International Tree Climbing Championship committee’s purpose is to provide a competitive but educational opportunity for working Arborists to demonstrate and exchange new climbing techniques, increase the interaction between various firms and members in the industry, and provide positive public exposure for the profession. "

That sounds like the ITCC committee has work practices in mind when putting on an event. The TCC's function to expose working arborists (this means people who prune/remove trees with a production quota in mind) to new techniques, allows them to network with other production workers, and exposes the public to the practices and techniques of the arboricultural industry.

Now I'm not arguing that a great competition climber is also a great production climber (maybe yes, but maybe no), but I am arguing that the value of competitive tree climbing does influence the industry. Clearly the Z133 leaves some gapping holes in terms of efficacy of gear/techniques. The ITCC fills in some of these gaps. Some. Not all

I'm not a fan of the term "chapter and verse" when it comes to any of these rules or regulations. Its not holy scripture. Nobody came down from Mount Arbor with some stone tablets proclaiming that the Z133 or ITCC rules are the word of god. To me these are general guidelines for safe work practices.
 
I agree that competitive climbing is a forum which produces new ideas and facilitates relevant discussions about climbing. It probably makes sense that ANSI will always be "outdated" relative to what competitive climbers want, due to the fact that ANSI moves slow and deliberate, and us climbers are out there like a bunch of excited kids learning new ways to do things.

I do think that competitions could probably simplify the rules and protect competitors but do not stifle creativity. Like just stating a single minimum breaking strength for ANY piece of life support equipment. It doesn't make sense that different life supports have different requirements for breaking strength.

That being said, the carabiner issue may rattle a climber who has to scurry and borrow a friends 22.5 kN, but it likely does not likely stifle creativity.
 
[ QUOTE ]
I'm not a fan of the term "chapter and verse" when it comes to any of these rules or regulations. Its not holy scripture. Nobody came down from Mount Arbor with some stone tablets proclaiming that the Z133 or ITCC rules are the word of god. To me these are general guidelines for safe work practices.

[/ QUOTE ]

I don't disagree with that general premise, but unfortunately when at a competition we will be held to the ITCC rules and, heaven forbid, we are before a jury we will be held to chapter and verse of the industry ANSI standards.

Anyhoo, it seems this thread has veered off into an interesting direction just the same.

Innovation clearly lies outside the holy writ of ITCC and ANSI and as such both of those may tend to lag, though the ITCC rules are more readily revised or amended to address such changes.

Just the same though, I really have no beef with my 22kn gear being sidelined. I do have a minor beef with the snaps being disallowed though.

However, since I was not as up to speed on the rules as I should have been I didn't feel I had any right to challenge the call and was happy to accept it at face value.

Besides, if nothing else it gave me the chance to challenge my brain to adapt and improvise on the fly.
smirk.gif


Anyhow, I'm not sure my original question was answered, and I'm not sure it can be as there appears to be widely varying views and opinions on consistency of application and similarity of application.

I do know this, though. I will be fully up on the rules next time!
smile.gif
 
[ QUOTE ]
Be careful about blending Z133 and ITCC rules.

One is the standard for the workplace in the US. The other is rules for a sporting event.

[/ QUOTE ]

This is why the EN/CEN is way ahead of us, I belive there rules are the same both work and comp. No mix match rules, Like ropes. If only 1/2" rope could be used then we need to go back and remove some foot lock records, alot of them were done on samsons 11mm rope not 1/2".


I'll be the guy with a big picket sign saying "just adopt the EN/CEN, the advanced rules are already there for ya"
 
I could be wrong but isn't a rope guide rated at just 22kn? I know the new ones with the cocoon are only 22. Don't they use a rope guide in the work climb tree at ITCC and don't they allow it in the masters? American climbers as well as others are using it. Isn't there a bit of a double standard here?
 
I am with everyone that is 50 lbs really that big of a deal? I mean 5000 or 4950? Plus I was part of the mutiny against Chris. He was slacking in his duties and Cory and I picked up the slack and talked to Norm in order to make Chris try to look good.
 
I would be in the same boat Tyler. If it's that close is it a big deal? Depends on who you ask. I I do have a problem with those super easy open snaps. Just too easy to open But I admit they look relly nice just if they had a better locking mechanism which from what I hear they are coming out with. For my lanyard I use a biner, takes a little getting used to but not that much harder once you learn it and find the right one for you. Your lanyard is your only connection to the tree at times and it should be treated as such.
Cory on the snaps being rated at 22.24 kn according to the normal math rules of rounding I learned in school it would be rounded to 22kn. If it was 22.25 it would be 22.5 if your rounding to halfs. Just a thought. I agree it is usually better to err on the safe side but it seems to be maybe too much. Where do we draw the line.
You did offer your rope guide as a house option. Those art blocks aren't marked at all, at least mine aren't which leads to a consistency issue to me.
 
[ QUOTE ]

Cory on the snaps being rated at 22.24 kn according to the normal math rules of rounding I learned in school it would be rounded to 22kn. If it was 22.25 it would be 22.5 if your rounding to halfs.

[/ QUOTE ]

Don't ask me why. I wasn't the one who made 22.5kN the magic number. Thats just the rule at any North American TCC.

Too, I would assume to round up for any safety equipment.
 
[ QUOTE ]
I am with everyone that is 50 lbs really that big of a deal? I mean 5000 or 4950? Plus I was part of the mutiny against Chris. He was slacking in his duties and Cory and I picked up the slack and talked to Norm in order to make Chris try to look good.

[/ QUOTE ]

You're off my "A" team, Tyler. Hope that mutiny was worth it. To keep this from happening in the future, I am demanding a Work-climb brig for my next head-judge position.
 
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
I am with everyone that is 50 lbs really that big of a deal? I mean 5000 or 4950? Plus I was part of the mutiny against Chris. He was slacking in his duties and Cory and I picked up the slack and talked to Norm in order to make Chris try to look good.

[/ QUOTE ]

You're off my "A" team, Tyler. Hope that mutiny was worth it. To keep this from happening in the future, I am demanding a Work-climb brig for my next head-judge position.

[/ QUOTE ]


Yeah, I have to agree with Chris here. Tyler, you blew it big time.

Never cross the one they call O'bryan.



SZ
 
[ QUOTE ]
Where do we draw the line.

[/ QUOTE ]

We draw the line at 5000 lbs. If we say 5000 +/- 50, next someone will say, "this is 4900--that's practically 4950." Gotta pick one and stick with it. If 5000 is not the right one, we can change it, but right now it's what we've got.
 
I agree that we have to pick a limit and stick with it. The problem is so much gear is rated at 22kn. It seems to me we need to determine if this is acceptable or not. This is really what it all seems to come down to. In my mind 22kn is good enough.
 
[ QUOTE ]
what about rope guides being used in comps? what's up with that?

[/ QUOTE ]

At the comps I judge, I go with the current ITCC rules, which has been 22kN. If they are allowed at the ITCC, why not let them fly at USA comps?
 
[ QUOTE ]

At the comps I judge, I go with the current ITCC rules, which has been 22kN. If they are allowed at the ITCC, why not let them fly at USA comps?

[/ QUOTE ]

I guess I should have asked Norm what the protocol before I DQed your stuff. Ooops! But just think of how entertaining this whole conversation was.

An example of ITCC moving faster than ANSI?
 
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]

At the comps I judge, I go with the current ITCC rules, which has been 22kN. If they are allowed at the ITCC, why not let them fly at USA comps?

[/ QUOTE ]

I guess I should have asked Norm what the protocol before I DQed your stuff. Ooops! But just think of how entertaining this whole conversation was.

An example of ITCC moving faster than ANSI?

[/ QUOTE ]

Awkward.
fruit.gif
 
This is where the troubles lie, one goof just goes DDUUUUUUUHHHHHH, the next one goes HHUUUUUUUUUUUUUUHHHHHH, and the third just works on how far he can get spit to hang and suck it back up before it falls off his lip.

We can all see now the rules are made up as they go along.
 
[ QUOTE ]
This is where the troubles lie, one goof just goes DDUUUUUUUHHHHHH, the next one goes HHUUUUUUUUUUUUUUHHHHHH, and the third just works on how far he can get spit to hang and suck it back up before it falls off his lip.

We can all see now the rules are made up as they go along.

[/ QUOTE ]

I guess you're the third.

Or just the turd?

Hows your testimony before the ANSI board playing out?
 
[ QUOTE ]
Hows your testimony before the ANSI board playing out?


[/ QUOTE ]

It is something I have a mind to go to, I like to hear why [ QUOTE ]
At the comps I judge, I go with the current ITCC rules, which has been 22kN. If they are allowed at the ITCC, why not let them fly at USA comps?

[/ QUOTE ] this is allowed. Yet other won't. Why do they even allow USA climbers to use anything that isn't ansi ruled. When doing a TCC one of the rules is all the proper gear needed to do tree work, example helmet types, glasses used, and so on, RIGHT????????. Yet some allow 22kn stuff, Foot locking on 10mm rope, climbing on 11mm rope, and so on. Wouldn't you like to hear their response to this, and be looking right in their faces as the try to make stuff up???? Sounds like a fun afternoon to me.
 
You must log in or register to reply here.

New threads New posts

Back
Top Bottom