MAD for residential service drops

Shadowscape said:
And if it is a primary line that any part of the tree is within the 10 foot zone, I would stay out of the tree if you are unqualified. That is my opinion only.
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Unless EHAP has changed MAD is a 'tube' with the powerline in the center and the 'tube' a variable distance depending on power and worker's education.

Cut location isn't a consideration.
 
Tom Dunlap said:
Unless EHAP has changed MAD is a 'tube' with the powerline in the center and the 'tube' a variable distance depending on power and worker's education.

Cut location isn't a consideration.
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I hope you didn't misunderstand me. I'm not following your statement, Cut location isn't a consideration.
Per the rules as stated, I was explaining that if you are outside of the 10 foot MAD, you can (although not advised) cut a limb that lies partially within the ten foot zone. There is nothing in the MAD rules that state otherwise. You and your equipment must remain outside the zone.
I'm not a big fan of EHAP, just to be clear.
 
Shadowscape said:
I'm not a big fan of EHAP, just to be clear.
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Yes...I understand.

Its been a few years since I've been involved with EHAP in any way. Things may be different now.

My understanding is the MAD charts are based on the physics of electricity. What is the distance that electricity can arc?

There are too many variables to have any verbiage about the condition of the branch that's in contact with wires at any voltage. Just don't touch unless the climber has proper training and tools. Or, deactivate the line.
 
Tom Dunlap said:
Yes...I understand.

Its been a few years since I've been involved with EHAP in any way. Things may be different now.

My understanding is the MAD charts are based on the physics of electricity. What is the distance that electricity can arc?

There are too many variables to have any verbiage about the condition of the branch that's in contact with wires at any voltage. Just don't touch unless the climber has proper training and tools. Or, deactivate the line.
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One of my personal issues with OSHA are those MAD rules. A residential service drop arc capability is, under ideal lab conditions with perfect contacts and ground, humidity, pressure and temperature is, 1.5 inches. Under normal encounters for arborists, it won't arc at all. It will create an arc when in contact with another phase or ground, but it is not going to jump to you.
10 feet ! ?

Primary lines are a different story, but the MAD guidelines are still way off. Safe, but over kill.

EHAP statement: " ,even a phone line can have enough voltage to kill." Bullshit three times over! A residential phone line operates on 5 volts. My 3 cell flashlight has the same potential to kill. They are all about scaring you into having you make your crew take their courses. And they have done a good job of that.

I'm not one who thinks arborists should go about pruning and working around powerlines Willy Nilly, but they should be told the truth and facts, so they understand what they are dealing with instead of just scaring them into staying away.

OSHA and EHAP take the scare approach, and it isn't productive. Canada has a similar program as OSHA (CCOHS) with regards to arborists and powerline work. Basically it says, "Don't get too close." But then, their arborists are taught the realities of electrical hazards under CSA Z462, and they know when they are getting too close if they have taken the course. Oh, how I wish we would adopt their method of training.
 
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Shadowscape said:
One of my personal issues with OSHA are those MAD rules. A residential service drop arc capability is, under ideal lab conditions with perfect contacts and ground, humidity, pressure and temperature is, 1.5 inches. Under normal encounters for arborists, it won't arc at all. It will create an arc when in contact with another phase or ground, but it is not going to jump to you.
10 feet ! ?
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Maybe liability plays a role here?

Yes you may be able to work within that 10ft radius in a safe manner, but it isn't one hundred percent guaranteed that nothing could happen and an individaul who lacks the experience working in these conditions may be more likely to do something that could potentailly put them at risk even if others are able to do the same thing with no issues. So easier to just have one MAD guideline that is recommended for everyone rather than approaching it as being more specific and situation dependent.

I don't know just a thought. I could see how that would certainly be a concern, as you are basically leaving everything up to the interpretation of the individual.
 
climbingmonkey24 said:
Maybe liability plays a role here?

Yes you may be able to work within that 10ft radius in a safe manner, but it isn't one hundred percent guaranteed that nothing could happen and an individaul who lacks the experience working in these conditions may be more likely to do something that could potentailly put them at risk even if others are able to do the same thing with no issues. So easier to just have one MAD guideline that is recommended for everyone rather than approaching it as being more specific and situation dependent.

I don't know just a thought. I could see how that would certainly be a concern, as you are basically leaving everything up to the interpretation of the individual.
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You are sounding just like OSHA. Wouldn't it be better to train arborists what the potential dangers of the different powerlines are so they know when they are working safely?
but it isn't one hundred percent guaranteed that nothing could happen and an individaul who lacks the experience working in these conditions may be more likely to do something that could potentailly put them at risk
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Didn't I just hear you say, "I know 10ft is recommended, but even though it's still recommended there are situations where you can still safely work within 10ft proximity to them. I did just the other day, from the ground with a non-conductive pole pruner near a service drop and communication lines."?
So you already are not paying attention to the rules and you think you know enough to be safe doing so, and yet you ask questions about how safe is it to.... You clearly do not know how safe it is to be near powerlines of different sorts, and yet you are breaking the rules of MAD. Hooya!
And you could remain ignorant of what, when, and how to be around the different power lines and abide by the rules laid down (which you clearly are not doing), or you could be taught what when and how to be safely around the different powerlines so that you do understand what each is capable of and do your job safely within that area.
Which would you rather work under? Be ignorant and stay 10 feet away, which you won't do, or, I know that this service drop is okay to work around because I understand its potential and will not encroach into that space, which might be better put as 2 feet just to be really safe, or because I am in a tree on a sunny dry day I really don't have to worry if my legs accidentally bumps into it because I know I will not get a shock. I'm thinking most of us would like to understand powerlines better and know what the real world dangers are. And it is pretty clear most of us do not pay attention to the rules from time to time when breaking them makes our life and work easier.

I've beat this topic into the ground, so it is time to move on. My last thought on the subject will be, If you are going to encroach into the MAD, please at least do a little research into the potential of the various voltages you might encounter out there. I'm not saying you should go within the MAD, just that if you are pig headed, take the time to learn a bit about what you are putting yourself in danger of.
 
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EHAP may not be a perfect solution. It does what its designed for.

Right there in the name...awareness.

Each company is responsible for training up to their own specifications.

Read the definitions of 'incidental'

There is a good reason that an EHAP certification stays with the paycheck not the employee/employer. The employer sets the standard and audits compliance.
 
Shadowscape said:
You are sounding just like OSHA. Wouldn't it be better to train arborists what the potential dangers of the different powerlines are so they know when they are working safely?

Didn't I just hear you say, "I know 10ft is recommended, but even though it's still recommended there are situations where you can still safely work within 10ft proximity to them. I did just the other day, from the ground with a non-conductive pole pruner near a service drop and communication lines."?
So you already are not paying attention to the rules and you think you know enough to be safe doing so, and yet you ask questions about how safe is it to.... You clearly do not know how safe it is to be near powerlines of different sorts, and yet you are breaking the rules of MAD. Hooya!
And you could remain ignorant of what, when, and how to be around the different power lines and abide by the rules laid down (which you clearly are not doing), or you could be taught what when and how to be safely around the different powerlines so that you do understand what each is capable of and do your job safely within that area.
Which would you rather work under? Be ignorant and stay 10 feet away, which you won't do, or, I know that this service drop is okay to work around because I understand its potential and will not encroach into that space, which might be better put as 2 feet just to be really safe, or because I am in a tree on a sunny dry day I really don't have to worry if my legs accidentally bumps into it because I know I will not get a shock. I'm thinking most of us would like to understand powerlines better and know what the real world dangers are. And it is pretty clear most of us do not pay attention to the rules from time to time when breaking them makes our life and work easier.

I've beat this topic into the ground, so it is time to move on. My last thought on the subject will be, If you are going to encroach into the MAD, please at least do a little research into the potential of the various voltages you might encounter out there. I'm not saying you should go within the MAD, just that if you are pig headed, take the time to learn a bit about what you are putting yourself in danger of.
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Well you certainly blew these comments WAY out of proportion...

FYI MY ORIGINAL QUESTION EARLIER ON WAS IN REFERENCE TO USING A LIFT THAT IS NOT INSULATED! As I have only ever worked near service drops and other lines from in a tree or the ground. I HAVE LONG KNOWN ABOUT THE 10 FT MAD FOR YEARS.

Also FYI, I AGREE with your POV about the OSHA rules, and when I made that comment I wasn't trying to contradict you I was just thinking out loud about whether that might not be their reasoning for having that approach as opposed to what you are describing. Maybe they don't want the risk of a lawsuit or something from anyone other than their own crews working around the lines even if it is possible to work around different lines safely. I agree with you, that's what I was trying to say.

Maybe ask more questions about what someone is trying to say as things can easily be interpreted differently online before attacking someone's level of knowledge and experience.

Anyone with any common sense would agree it doesn't matter how many years of experience you have, there is no harm whatsoever in asking questions and seeking others input for the sake of comparing what you are doing to what others are doing.
 
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No offense but that kind of thing irritates me, I would never judge another arborist on their skills or knowledge just based off a few sentences on an internet forum without talking to them further and getting a better understanding of the situation, etc. Way too easy for things to get misinterpreted.
 
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@climbingmonkey24
Well tough, because you don't know what you are doing. You keep referring to OSHA rules that are not negotiable as recommended.
"I know 10ft is recommended, but even though it's still recommended there are situations where you can still safely work within 10ft proximity to them." That is your post.
It is not a recommendation; it is a rule you must follow. And no, you can't work in that 10 foot radius. Period!
So, you do not know what you are doing.
And if that irritates you, I don't care in the least.
 
Shadowscape said:
@climbingmonkey24
Well tough, because you don't know what you are doing. You keep referring to OSHA rules that are not negotiable as recommended.
"I know 10ft is recommended, but even though it's still recommended there are situations where you can still safely work within 10ft proximity to them." That is your post.
It is not a recommendation; it is a rule you must follow. And no, you can't work in that 10 foot radius. Period!
So, you do not know what you are doing.
And if that irritates you, I don't care in the least.
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You’re contradicting yourself you know that? You’ve said on multiple points that you disagree with the OSHA rules on that. That even though 10ft is the rule there are situations where arborists can safely work in closer proximity to lines.

Is it acceptable? Not by current standards. Is it done frequently and will it continue to be done by many? Absolutely. It’s no different than one handing a chainsaw. It’s not recommended but many do it in certain situations for a variety of reasons.

Not once did I say it’s okay to work within 10ft of a service drop, but you also aren’t gonna tell me that I’m the only one here who does it? All I said was that I do sometimes work within 10 ft, just like plenty of arborists. Wasn’t saying it’s okay, or that others should follow suit. I thought I made that very clear.

Pretty sure I’ve seen others mention they have on occasion as well. Are you going to say they don’t know what they’re doing either?

You have no clue on my background or experience with tree work, electrical, etc.

I made one comment in regards to a lift and that I admittedly break the 10ft rule (just like many others) yet you’re saying I’m “spewing info” but I’m not. I’m not suggesting anybody do anything, just stating pure facts that many arborists do break that rule and are able to safely, even if it technically is a violation. Isn’t that what you have said in multiple posts? I’m literally agreeing with your point of view, yet you’re saying I’m the one spewing info when you’ve got multiple paragraphs worth of posts sharing your opinion.

Sharing your expertise and knowledge is a great thing, but not when you start attacking others experience and knowledge or making accusations that they don’t know what they are talking about.

I’m sorry, but you are misinterpreting the meaning behind my comments. I wasn’t asking what the MAD was, whether it was okay to break the 10ft rule, etc. I was asking about whether that MAD recommendation changed when you are in a bucket that isn’t insulated. Nothing more nothing less. I don’t know how much clearer I can possibly be…
 
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Shadowscape said:
@climbingmonkey24
Well tough, because you don't know what you are doing. You keep referring to OSHA rules that are not negotiable as recommended.
"I know 10ft is recommended, but even though it's still recommended there are situations where you can still safely work within 10ft proximity to them." That is your post.
It is not a recommendation; it is a rule you must follow. And no, you can't work in that 10 foot radius. Period!
So, you do not know what you are doing.
And if that irritates you, I don't care in the least.
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You’ve wrote multiple paragraphs stating that you think arborists can work in closer proximity to certain lines than the current MAD recommendations, yet you call me out because I admitted I sometimes I break that rule at times, even though many others do as well?

At least I have the balls to admit it instead of acting like I don’t. Some people will criticize other arborists when they see them do something that goes against the rules yet won’t admit that they do it themselves.

If anything, I would say your posts are more likely to give off the impression that it’s okay to break that rule because of your background in electrical work. Someone who doesn’t know any better may read that and say, well if this guy says this maybe it’s okay…

Think about it
 
Shadowscape said:
You are plenty clear. You don't know what you are doing.
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You admitted that arborists can work around power lines safely closer than 10ft and that many do, others have said they have broken that rule, so why are you singling me out saying I don’t know what im doing simply because I am not afraid to admit that I break that rule?
 
no, you have no clue what I was trying to say.

If you are going to judge someone expertise and knowledge based off a few posts on a forum, you really are full of yourself
 
Shadowscape said:
You are plenty clear. You don't know what you are doing, and you can't understand what I was saying.
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When I asked that question about the lift your response was to go to page 1,

You did not understand that I was already well aware of the MAD rules from my previous years of tree work experience, both commercial and residential, town work, and crane work. I also used to work as a tow truck operator and frequently worked accident scenes that involved down power lines and damaged power poles. Working closely along fire departments and power companies.

So maybe you should check yourself before you start assuming you’re the only one here who knows what they are talking about. This is not my first rodeo when it comes to electricity.

I’m sorry I even posted in this thread, should've known it was gonna get blown out of proportion
 
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