Lost bid - pissed!

Often customers that want their trees topped have already had them topped in the past. Most of the trees we have here are silver, red, sugar maples & pin oaks. Especially on previously topped trees of these species, there are usually no good laterals to reduce to (usually hard to find lateral branches to even tie in to above the previous topping cuts which requires doing most work from the work positioning lanyard = pain is the A$$).

I have always viewed drastic reductions as a slow removal for potentially hazardous trees, where replacement with a species that doesn't get big enough to be a concern as a more sustainable option.

Customers that want trees topped want dirt cheap deals and they certainly dont want to pay for the corrective training a tree may need shortly after a drastic reduction. That said, people that like having their trees topped will top a pin oak or a dogwood regardless of the info I give them in most cases so it has confused me, but its not only fear based.

I would like to see photos of reduction jobs that would pass for an alternative to topping.
 
Also Jeff, are you in memphis? thats like 8 hours from these hills. I could drive to canada in that distance.

Are you sure we are working with the same animal? I've been to nashville and didn't see nearly the topping there that we are graced with.
 
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I would like to see photos of reduction jobs that would pass for an alternative to topping.

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I agree. We did a large silver maple yesterday, manually, because the customer didn't want a bucket in the yard. It had been SLAMMED years ago, maybe 15 or more. Result: 25 to 30 feet of regrowth above old topping cuts, smooth all the way up to the top. Really only one good TIP at a workable height, and even that leaves you hanging below anything that could be considered a true lateral, and absolutely nothing to stand on. And even if one was inclined to make "proper" cuts (over his head) all day, while suspended and getting an 8 hour ab blaster workout, the objective wouldn't have been met. Sure, the tree would be happy, but it would be right back in 2 or 3 years, and in this case the customer justifiably wanted substantial weight reduction to minimize chances of breakage. Making 30 foot suckers into 25 foot suckers isn't going to do that. To get substantial weight reduction, one must usually make substantial cuts.

So I'm also curious about how this sort of tree can be made safer without heavy reduction.
 
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I would like to see photos of reduction jobs that would pass for an alternative to topping.

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here?
 

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I would like to see photos of reduction jobs that would pass for an alternative to topping.

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if you actually read the A300 standard you will see that size of lateral is NOT the criterion; has not been since 2001.
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I would like to see photos of reduction jobs that would pass for an alternative to topping.

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if you actually read the A300 standard you will see that size of lateral is NOT the criterion; has not been since 2001.
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This whole "stubs are evil" thing has got to go.
 

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I would like to see photos of reduction jobs that would pass for an alternative to topping.

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I'll get some for you, we do white pine reductions frequently and it works out really well. I did one about two weeks before the snow storm we just got. I went to look at the tree yesterday and there was no damage from snow!
 
Thanks for the pics & story guy! Good info. I can definitely see the use of reductions for trees that are overloaded by lean, vista pruning and many other situations for hazard mitigation. And I can see where leaving stubs might be the best option (like avoiding making a huge wound on the main stem?) I do question the possibilities of decay, fungus and bacteria that could set in and spread to healthy live portions of the tree as a reslut of leaving large stubs?

I knew a Guy tongue lashing was coming sooner or later on this thread.

"if you actually read the A300 standard you will see that size of lateral is NOT the criterion; has not been since 2001."

I prefer to live in the 90's when life was more simple.
 
no that view job was just me; the characters went in for the story, which got to be too long for a DDendro story, so it got printed eslewhere. Mike O'Ryza is the aussie alternative.

re decay in stubs, i noted the good closure at nodes in the euc from storm damage, so i hypothesized the same in the nodal cuts i made. this is the 2nd growing season after, so the tree should be responding but i'm still waiting for after pics; "Cal" will get out there soon he says...

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"if you actually read the A300 standard you will see that size of lateral is NOT the criterion; has not been since 2001."

I prefer to live in the 90's when life was more simple.

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So many arbs want the 1/3 rule to last forever. funny thing is, shigo would be the first to chuck it; he advocated nodal pruning in 1986!
 
Macrocarpa, to go off the original topic of this thread...I helped bid a HUGE job for Menards(a midwest Lowes copycat)for a friend looking to land the lawn care contract. A big part of it was the tree shrub care of the entire property(over 150 trees and 150 shrubs). I gave them an EXTREMELY thorough bid with several different options of "attention to detail".

Their requirements were to use the "Shigo Method" and/or "other modern arboicultural methods' on all trees. So after penning a lengthy proposal for my good friend, with the understanding that I would sub all of the tree/shrub work, my friend got the bid. YAY...for him.

I drive by in the early summer, still hounding my lawn care buddy as to when we are gonna start the tree/shrub work, and what do I see? A boatload of the same thing you saw...flush cuts made from the ground, no crown thinning, no structural pruning(on trees that needed it VERY BADLY). Just a bunch of deplorable work from some kid they are probably paying minimum wage.

I guess the point is, it's nice to get a HUGE contract like that, but this is a typical M.O. for a lot of corporate properties. Tell them what they should do, then they pay some a$$hat minimum wage to do the work.

At least I landed my friend the lawn contract. He is also the bartender @ our local ski hill. At the very least, 2 years later I still get free beers from him for helping him out.
 
I am definitely feeling a couple of Jeff's points, though they came on a bit brash. I think this is one of the most important debates to be had with the economy in its current state and a lot of misnomers of best practices circulating.

I've worked for companies with a high degree of integrity, and those that could be considered otherwise. I've learned a bunch about customer relations from both, and I must say I've learned a great deal about tree biology from revisiting work that could be described as scandalous.
 
Macro- i understand your position totally, but move on. Your about quality Lowes isn't- they are not your ideal client. Move on to the next estimate. Business is tough like that. This will not be the last time this happens to you. Also you do have to solve peoples problems thats ultimately what we are doing in any business. Keep your chip up. Don't sacrifice standards, and find the clients that value your service. Good luck!
 
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