Loop vs prussic

[KevinS]

I get around the rope shortage by having 3 dedicated ropes in the block and tackle setups.
1 set has a 150'x 5/8'' Wall Braid in it, which stays incredibly round for running through the pulleys,
and the other 2 have 100'ers. The shorter 2 give me 25' of pull and I've never run out. Not even on hard leaners. I use, (what we call a rope block), to hook the block n tackle set up to the pull rope.
It's an exhilarating feeling when you manually pull over a biggie with a couple of guys, and maybe a wedge or 2 in the back cut.

I have a dedicated 150’ 1/2” line in a 5:1 b&t always strung ready to use

 

[Stephen Moore]

I know 2 guys that used this practice, they are in wheel chairs now! I’m not saying you dont take the long way to the truck and I’m not saying I haven’t used the practice. You must be 100% focused and be watching all around when you do.

I never turn my back, always use overkill. And I’m anal about my cuts. I’ve never had a tree magically break off on me. But yeah, if you don’t know don’t do.

 

[Stephen Moore]

Plus blocks are slow to take up, 3 to 1 means 3 times slower etc. More rope is required also, and to get the needed force for really big trees you will need to incorporate a winch or puller anyway.

You make ma sound like a nuisance

No that’s not what I’m implying. I’m saying connection to a truck when possible is faster, therefor I make more money doing it. When it’s not possible I use other methods. Mechanical advantage is a truck. Unless I’m missing something! Truck = machine which is mechanical and gives advantage.

 

[KevinS]

I never turn my back, always use overkill. And I’m anal about my cuts. I’ve never had a tree magically break off on me. But yeah, if you don’t know don’t do.

Magic trees breaking r the worst

 

[Stephen Moore]

Magic trees breaking r the worst

At least they break where I tell em to!

 

[KevinS]

No that’s not what I’m implying. I’m saying connection to a truck when possible is faster, therefor I make more money doing it. When it’s not possible I use other methods. Mechanical advantage is a truck. Unless I’m missing something! Truck = machine which is mechanical and gives advantage.

Truck does not = machine
Truck = mighty machine lol

 

[TimBr]

I know 2 guys that used this practice, they are in wheel chairs now! I’m not saying you dont take the long way to the truck and I’m not saying I haven’t used the practice. You must be 100% focused and be watching all around when you do.

So, if I'm seeing this right, the two men who injured themselves did a notch and a back cut, thinking that they were only undermining the integrity of the tree, but that it would take a pull with a truck to bring it on over. Then they walked right in front of the fall path of the tree on the way to the truck, turning their backs on the tree so that they could not see what it was doing. Then, the tree decided that the notch and back cut was perfectly adequate all by itself to make the tree fall on over, catching the timber faller unawares. Is this correct?

Thanks for your original post, and any further answers you provide. It helps us all to stay in one piece.

Tim

 

[Stephen Moore]

Curious as to why you wouldn’t rely on the prussic, climbers have use prussic’s for a long time as a solo piece of life support,

Because a prusic will pinch off a rope like a turd. They work fantastic on small loads but on really big ones they tend to chop them off.

 

[TimBr]

I often use a maasdam rope puller to help with back leaners and side leaners and wherever else I need a mechanical advantage. I have my rope puller set up with 30' of rope rather than using it directly on the rigging lines. When setting up a pull line or a safety line with tension I sometimes use a farmers loop on the pull line to hook into the rope puller and sometimes use a 1/2 rigging prussic with 6-8 wraps. The prussic makes it super easy to adjust the location of the anchor on the pull line to get maximum pull length. I've watched a bunch of Richards videos of him breaking gear and it got me wondering, which is stronger, the prussic or the farmers loop? I realize that the rope puller is the weakest link in the system with only a 1500# rating, and there is no way me just cranking on the handle can overload anypart of the system. So I'm pretty confident neither the loop or prussic will fail, but am still kinda curious which would fail first when put to the test?

Hey, Windwalker! Thanks for starting this thread; very interesting questions, generating great responses. Your post is the first time I've ever even read someone mention the Farmer's Hitch in all of my time on the forums, so thanks for that, too. Your original post came right on time for something I'm considering taking a run at. Thanks again.

Tim

 

[Stephen Moore]

Hey, Windwalker! Thanks for starting this thread; very interesting questions, generating great responses. Your post is the first time I've ever even read someone mention the Farmer's Hitch in all of my time on the forums, so thanks for that, too. Your original post came right on time for something I'm considering taking a run at. Thanks again.

Tim

Are you talking about a truckers hitch? 3-4 twists in a bight then pull a bight from the standing end through the bottom for a loop? That's pretty basic for a simple and fast block connection. I use that almost daily on small trees.

 

[Windwalker]

Hey, Windwalker! Thanks for starting this thread; very interesting questions, generating great responses. Your post is the first time I've ever even read someone mention the Farmer's Hitch in all of my time on the forums, so thanks for that, too. Your original post came right on time for something I'm considering taking a run at. Thanks again.

Tim

We never stop learning. I haven't used a butterfly since I learned the farmers hitch. And no its not a truckers hitch, I use that also, mostly to tie things down. The farmers loop is also known as the circus bowline.

 

[Stephen Moore]

We never stop learning. I haven't used a butterfly since I learned the farmers hitch. And no its not a truckers hitch, I use that also, mostly to tie things down. The farmers loop is also known as the circus bowline.

Oh, I use the circus sometimes but mostly not, simply because it's kinda hard to verify compared to the butterfly knot.

 

[TimBr]

@Stephen Moore; @Windwalker; I found this video as a link in a Wikipedia article on the Farmer's Hitch. It is pretty good, as the guy doing the video points out some extra things he does in using the knot that make it much easier to work with after it gets loaded. I think it is supposed to be much easier to get undone after loading than is the Alpine Butterfly knot. Here's the link.

Tim

 

[Windwalker]

That’s what I have found, it’s easier to untie after a heavy load

 

[Stephen Moore]

It’s fast to tie too.

 

[Fivepoints]

I use a dedicated 1/2" rigging prusik loop on my 5/8" bull rope for setting up a z drag for pulling with my sk650. I usually tie a klemheist with the loop. I've never had it slip noticeably or melt to the rope. I do always back it up with an apline just in case.

On the other hand, we have managed to break a 1" bull rope with a truck. Trying to pull a large poplar tree back upright that had landed on a house and had no crane access.

 

[flyingsquirrel25]

So, if I'm seeing this right, the two men who injured themselves did a notch and a back cut, thinking that they were only undermining the integrity of the tree, but that it would take a pull with a truck to bring it on over. Then they walked right in front of the fall path of the tree on the way to the truck, turning their backs on the tree so that they could not see what it was doing. Then, the tree decided that the notch and back cut was perfectly adequate all by itself to make the tree fall on over, catching the timber faller unawares. Is this correct?

Thanks for your original post, and any further answers you provide. It helps us all to stay in one piece.

Tim

Tim thanks for the question and sorry for the delay getting back (I’ve got my butt handed to me the last week or so with paperwork and work). Both I believe had vines involved and ropes. I’m pretty sure both were working alone (people around just not qualified to do anything). When the notch and back cut were made they were enough to get the tree to start falling, the ropes were intended to help free the vines. I wasn’t at either accident but one was a farmer friend in VT and he probably walked right under the tree (farmers aren’t the brightest sometimes), the other was a pretty good Arborist in this area quite some time ago. Good friend of mine now, and I would like to think he took a wide birth, just not wide enough considering the vines.

 

[TimBr]

@flyingsquirrel25; Thanks for the answers, and for your time. I understand being busy, first things first. Plus, time goes by so fast for me now I hardly notice the decades passing. I appreciate the info.

Tim

 

[ClimbMIT]

I know 2 guys that used this practice, they are in wheel chairs now! I’m not saying you dont take the long way to the truck and I’m not saying I haven’t used the practice. You must be 100% focused and be watching all around when you do.

A guy I know did the same thing in November of last year. He bent down to grab the pull line and realized the tree was falling right towards his head! The tree landed on his lower torso breaking his pelvis and upper section of his femur. He went to hypovolemic shock and needed several blood transfusions. He was very lucky to survive and be able to still walk. This was his only accident in 30 years of tree work.


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[ClimbMIT]

I prefer a loop as well. As stated above You can also stop a Maasdam from slipping using an Alpine butterfly and a carabiner. I usually use a T 180 as my mechanical advantage backed up with wedges. On bigger trees and heavy leaners I like to use a secondary 5/8 bull rope on a bight around another tree or heavy piece of equipment.


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