Petzl Midline Zigzag

[Ryan Cafferky]

On the ISC Reflex thread there have been a few mentions of a midline attachable Zigzag. So fans of shiny trinkets, how bad will Petzl pretzel their company in cooking something like this up? Will they be smart and say it is meant to work with their two climbing lines? The larger line for larger climbers and the smaller line for smaller climbers? Or will they just do what ISC did and throw it out there and hope that the muggles are actually wizards and won't screw up the spell?

 

[Matias]

I don't see what's stopping them from basically just releasing a near duplicate of the reflex but with those caveats so you can't blame them for imperfect functioning. It will also still need the Chicane to work SRT. As Gordon has pointed out, any pure mechanical will require some variation of the wrench action to be smooth. I do like Richards innovation of putting the 'wrench' under the hitch, and have hopes that the Lynx will work for heavier climbers than the BDB allows for, as I have gained about 25# since I started climbing.

 

[pcpTR33]

The zigzag did suffer that last recall in 2021 for the thumb levers, but I will say after August did the pull test on it, it did quiet a lot of the nerves around the zigzag links atleast within a lot of the circles I was around at the time. I used a zigzag exclusively for right around 6/7 months? After my shoulder surgery and to be honest I think that’s always been the biggest point in my eyes with the zigzag: it’s consistent and it just makes climbing less work, particularly when ran through friction saver. The consistency portion needs to stay the same for it to have any chance of not being a disappointment atleast in my eyes.

 

[Njdelaney]

I don't see what's stopping them from basically just releasing a near duplicate of the reflex but with those caveats so you can't blame them for imperfect functioning. It will also still need the Chicane to work SRT. As Gordon has pointed out, any pure mechanical will require some variation of the wrench action to be smooth. I do like Richards innovation of putting the 'wrench' under the hitch, and have hopes that the Lynx will work for heavier climbers than the BDB allows for, as I have gained about 25# since I started climbing.

Just to be clear Paul Cox invented the HH, not Richard. Richard has done a great job refining the design however.

 

[Matias]

Just to be clear Paul Cox invented the HH, not Richard. Richard has done a great job refining the design however.

That's sweet! I always love learning the history of this under celebrated community.

 

[southsoundtree]

PCTree

 

[pcpTR33]

Arbsession put up a post on instagram teasing the new midline zigzag so I’m sure it will be the device of TCIA

 

[Evo]

Yup, here’s a screen shot looks almost identical

 

[Matias]

that looks like a lot more than a rumor

 

[ATH]

I changed my vote from "just a rumor" LOL. Does a required "repair kit" count for option 2?

 

[Bart_]

I'm going to cringe if August pull tests one of those to failure. The links have got to be steel and they're an engineering feat of beauty.

 

[Ryan Cafferky]

Could this be the holy grail that everyone has been waiting for since the hitchhiker device was put out and showed us how well friction below the hitch functioned? But some of us who loved that concept but despise cordage always dreamed of a Zigzag with friction below. Time will tell if they got it right.

 

[Bart_]

Devil's in the details. If petzl link chain quality and geometry could be paired with the reflex's SRT enabled lower rope pinch (perhaps also given a tuneup) it could possibly remove the chicanery rw. There's design leeway on a rope pinch so I think it might turn out well. That being said, the chicanery rw has very aggressive geometry settings making it more challenging to replace.

 

[Steve Connally]

Thanks for making sure Paul is recognized. Paul is an OG legend and deserves all the props he can get. Most people don't even know who the Raptor Girls are........Last I talked to Paul, he and Sam were about to head to Mexico as the current admin was about to have him deported. I spent 12 hours in a car with him. You guys have no idea what you're missing not having met him in person.

 

[surveyor]

I met with Paul in 2014? at the climbing competition at Charlotte, and showed him my midline OAR device which worked for me SRT on Tachyon (which was one of two ropes I owned) but I did not have on hand. He wanted to try it out, so borrowed a Vortex rope from another climber there, but it crept SRT. He began to wonder out loud if a hitch could be added above it . He was an encouragement to me, taking an interest in what I was making, as were many others from this board.

 

[Bart_]

Found a vid on zigzag mentioning they received their patent in 2011, got to market 2013. Where the heck have the years gone?! Made me curious so I looked up Thompson Unicender and found it to be trialing (pre?)-Rock Exotica in 2009. Cripes.

Someone should see (and post) if the wraptor girls vids are still out there. Marketing 101.


edit: Curiosity is giving me a history review. Found this clue:

US10258829B2 - On-Rope Work Positioning Device | Patent Bear​

patentbear.com › Patents
US 2005/0262669Thompson. 2005-12-00 · cited by applicant. US 2006/0081418Thompson. 2006-04-00 · cited by applicant. US 2007/0215411Petzl et al. 2007-09-00 ...


suggesting a little to and fro with Thompson and Petzl and clear mention of Thompson inventing it in 2005. Petzl may have started their iteration (zigzag) shortly after. Anyone know the story of those early years?

edit2: that appears to be from a list of related patents, not necessarily a direct interaction between parties. Warning - trying to read patents without diagrams may cause mental pain!

edit3: pdf's have diagrams. The patent bear number is Jaime's Akimbo

edit4: the unicender patent was filed feb 2005 so development was probably in 2004

 

[Evo]

Found a vid on zigzag mentioning they received their patent in 2011, got to market 2013. Where the heck have the years gone?! Made me curious so I looked up Thompson Unicender and found it to be trialing (pre?)-Rock Exotica in 2009. Cripes.

Someone should see (and post) if the wraptor girls vids are still out there. Marketing 101.


edit: Curiosity is giving me a history review. Found this clue:

US10258829B2 - On-Rope Work Positioning Device | Patent Bear​

patentbear.com › Patents
US 2005/0262669Thompson. 2005-12-00 · cited by applicant. US 2006/0081418Thompson. 2006-04-00 · cited by applicant. US 2007/0215411Petzl et al. 2007-09-00 ...


suggesting a little to and fro with Thompson and Petzl and clear mention of Thompson inventing it in 2005. Petzl may have started their iteration (zigzag) shortly after. Anyone know the story of those early years?

First discussions I’ve heard about using roller chain as a friction ‘hitch’ was here. Can’t find the exact link or date but it goes back into 2011 or beyond.
Check in with @surveyor

Post in thread 'Chain friction hitch'
https://www.treebuzz.com/forum/threads/chain-friction-hitch.18023/post-256533

And
Post in thread 'Updated Sequoia'
https://www.treebuzz.com/forum/threads/updated-sequoia.39309/post-585132

 

[surveyor]

Here is the thread about the "Pulley/Rack" I was working on in early 2012. I had no knowledge at that time about the zigzag. I continue along this same line with the Lynx to this day. If the zigzag shift stands up to long term use, then I think it may be better than the Blackbird in the sense that it releases with one hand (SRT) when limb walking.

Thread 'pulley/ rack combo'

Mar 31, 2012

I have been testing out a totally new design. It is a very compact rack (2 1/2" tall when tending slack) that doubles as a hitch tending pulley. The hitch cord is above the rack and serves as the tether also. It can be installed directly on the bridge ring if so desired, and also directly onto the hitch cord... no biners at all. It is working very sweetly for me on both a single line and a double line. The only drawback is that it has to be threaded. I hope to post a video soon.

• surveyor
• Replies: 60
• Forum: Stationary Rope Technique-Half the rope, twice the

 

[peoriatreeremovalco]

From a working contractor's standpoint, I lean toward 'they nail it first try' — but I won't be a day-one buyer either way. Petzl's track record with the original Zigzag shows they iterate based on real field feedback, and midline attachability solves a genuine headache for SRT climbers who currently tie in through the end of the line or swap devices to transition to DdRT. The real test won't be the teaser photos, though — it'll be how the links and chain wear over a season of dirty ropes, gritty bark, and sap. We have all seen v1 devices that looked brilliant in the catalog and then got recall kits in the mailbox. My approach is to let the early adopters and the pull-test crowd run it hard for six months, then buy once the bugs are sorted. The concept itself is sound, and real competition with the Reflex will only make both devices better.

 

[Bart_]

In the patent info Petzl filed June 2011 implying they designed, developed tested and got the patent done in just over 4 months if they started in Jan 2011. I would consider that a large effort. Chances are they twigged off the Uni's chain links when the Uni was public in 2009. Then it sounds right, a year or two to get their ducks in a row and go public with filing a patent by mid 2011.

Petzl seems to have an affinity for rope grooves or channels, going back to Grandpa Petzl's grigri. Probably hence the channels in the zigzag.

I found an article about ascenders/descenders and, talk about demoralising, some German dude in about 1896 patented the key mechanism in my OneWay multiscender! Doh!