Looks pretty simple to me...

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And posting something like this on say a rec-climbing site?? ;)( which to your credit my friend, I do not see :) )

gives us caring pros a bad name, and cause even more friction between us and strictly rec climbers...I say strictly, because I am a working climber, but I love to rec climb too!

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I think you're getting some things confused. The friction between rec climbers and arborists has nothing to do with tree hackers.

Nor would it be appropriate to post tree work videos on a recreational post. Do you think my being a rec climber had anything to do with hiring these guys? If so, then I guess everybody else that's hired them were rec climbers too?

And BTW, no offense, but they don't advertise because they get so many referrals they have more to do than they can get done.

Just for the record, when I needed some work done on my own property, I got a professional, certified, whatever else papered, arborist, with references that had been in the business for 40 years. Guess what? His climber climbed in spikes, and BTW, told me that he would climb to the 50 foot point in a tree with just spikes and no lanyard.

They dropped a big limb on my new shop roof; fortunately it didn't damage it, but they came close.

But, I tried to get the best; I was told this guy was one of the best. All I'm saying is sometimes you check everything out the best you can and you still don't get what you'd hoped for. I just didn't have time to do more 100 miles away.

As for the video, I thought it might be interesting to see how an entirely different paradigm of tree workers (notice I did not say arborist) do their job on a daily basis. Of course many have already seen that more than they want to. For others it may be an eye opening shock.
 
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I'm not taking up for the method, but the truth is nothing or no one was hurt or and nothing was broken

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This is a key here Ron. Sure, nothing hurt or broken, THIS TIME. But what about the next job, or the one after that? He can only get by with so much luck before something happens and an injury occurs or something is broken. His method was hazardous to himself and the trees. I would have thought with your background Ron that you could have seen this a mile away.

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See it a mile away? Is there some way to see that a tree worker is gonna free climb? It never occured to me to ask if he would free climb or not use a second TIP because I'd I'd never so much as even heard of such a thing before. It was something I could not believe someone would do. IOWs, I've never seen a video of a guy doing something so outlandish. Now there's at least one video out there to alert others to how far some will go in neglect of their own safety.

And I think it's appropriate to respond to this, "Sure, nothing hurt or broken, THIS TIME. But what about the next job, or the one after that?". Can't the very same thing be said about a top notch arborist? I've read posts on this very board where it's been said in regard of injuries it's not if, but when. Then we can go to the AWAKENINGS forum and take a look.

I understand the concern; I have the same concern. But the fact and truth are that this guy has only had two accidents in over 30 years. But still I don't like and don't approve the method. In fact, I was shocked when I saw him in the tree. So what should I have done? Called him down and sent him off and still be stuck with the job? As I saw it, I was stuck with him and his method or not get the work done.

I chose to get the job done, but learn from my mistake of assuming too much, and letting being out of time, out of town, and the need to get something finish influence me.
 
Stop being defensive. You hired complete hacks despite your better knowledge. If you thought you could justify this type of tree work to the Treebuzz community you have absolutely no business taking a saw into a tree. Oh, I did the best I could do, time was an issue, nothing got damaged, no one got hurt, and spikes are ok.........around here??????. Admit it, you screwed up and hired hacks, really, really, bad ones.

Sorry, but someone had to.
 
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Stop being defensive. You hired complete hacks despite your better knowledge. If you thought you could justify this type of tree work to the Treebuzz community you have absolutely no business taking a saw into a tree. Oh, I did the best I could do, time was an issue, nothing got damaged, no one got hurt, and spikes are ok.........around here??????. Admit it, you screwed up and hired hacks, really, really, bad ones.

Sorry, but someone had to.

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Banjo has it right.
 
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Stop being defensive. You hired complete hacks despite your better knowledge. If you thought you could justify this type of tree work to the Treebuzz community you have absolutely no business taking a saw into a tree. Oh, I did the best I could do, time was an issue, nothing got damaged, no one got hurt, and spikes are ok.........around here??????. Admit it, you screwed up and hired hacks, really, really, bad ones.

Sorry, but someone had to.

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Banjo, I have no idea where you got such ideas.

I didn't hire someone despite better knowledge. I asked if they were bonded and insured - they were. I asked for references and ran the references and they were very positive. That's all I had to go on.

I made no attempt to justify this to anyone. Did you not read all the things I listed to notice? All those were issues I don't approve of much less expect anybody here to.

And, again banjo, where did I even allude to getting the best I could do? If you read more carefully you'd know that.

But, time was an issue. I was leaving Knoxville just about the time they pulled up. And it is a fact that nothing or no one was damaged.

Again, banjo, you're not understanding what you're reading. Show me where I said spikes are ok. I didn't; I didn't even hint that they were ok. If you would read more carefully you'd see that I said they are used commonly around here and arborists on this board have also alluded to that. I didn't like it when a long-time, professional arborist with all the paper and certifications spiked my trees.

Of course someone had to say it. And, it might as well be you that got everything all mixed up and then try to say it.

I don't mind honest criticism guys; but when somebody perversly distorts things beyond reason, I'm coming back with the truth.

But no, I didn't get what I expected and I was disappointed as soon as I saw this beginning, but I could let it go and get it done or send them on their way and start over. But then I was disappointed with the spikes from the proarbo I hired for my trees. BTW, I got quotes from several other arborists - they use spikes too.

So, no, I'm not happy with the way it was done, but I sure am happy to have it done and not have to worry about a big over-balanced decayed tree falling or dropping a limb on a loved one or seriously damaging property.
 
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Stop being defensive. You hired complete hacks despite your better knowledge. If you thought you could justify this type of tree work to the Treebuzz community you have absolutely no business taking a saw into a tree. Oh, I did the best I could do, time was an issue, nothing got damaged, no one got hurt, and spikes are ok.........around here??????. Admit it, you screwed up and hired hacks, really, really, bad ones.

Sorry, but someone had to.

[/ QUOTE ]

Spot on.
 
You know guys, it's easy for you to sit back and severely, and publically critisize someone when you're not in their shoes. And I know none of you have ever had to make a crunch decision and have it turn out different than you expected.

Well, unlike you super guys, I'm just a human. I get in binds like I thought everyone did, and I have to work with what I have sometimes.

Sometimes that's less than ideal; sometimes not even good. But life is what it is and we have to deal with it as it unfolds and in a time frame that puts us at a disadvantage. We don't always have the benefit of resources and time we'd like.

But I have learned one thing from this: never, ever, share a mistake on TreeBuzz again.

The video has been removed from YouTube.
 
Sorry to pile on, but by not stopping this guy once you saw his work methods, means you condone them. You admit that you know these methods are wrong, yet you stood there and let him go. This is worse than someone who doesn't know hiring these type of outfits. Our company works hard to educate clients about proper tree care and if they hire "hacks" then we don't want them as customers, because that usually means that price is their biggest concern. Our company doesn't negotiate prices or methods. It is what it is, take it or leave it. Not saying we are perfect and never screw up, but we try to make arboriculture better.
 
Ron, you're taking this too hard. Of course these pics and vid will raise the ire of most of us on here. I'm actually GLAD you posted it though because it IS an eye opener. We're not critisizing you, just the tree guy you hired. Over the years I have trained many up and commers how NOT to work that way, and have educated many consumers on right vs. wrong tree work. The key here is education - too many "tree guys" think they can get away without it, and too many homeowners just don't know the difference.

Not your fault Ron, please don't be hurt. And please feel free to post ANYTHING that may be relevant to spreading the knowledge of good tree care. Thank you.
 
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Sorry to pile on, but by not stopping this guy once you saw his work methods, means you condone them. You admit that you know that these methods are wrong, yet you stood their and let him go. This is worse than someone who doesn't know hiring these type of outfits. Our company works hard to educate clients about proper tree care and if they hire "hacks" then we don't want them as customers, because that usually means that price is their biggest concern. Our company doesn't negotiate prices or methods. It is what it is, take it or leave it. Not saying we are perfect and never screw up, but we try to make arboriculture better.

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I appreciate that, but yes, you do intend to pile on and with the same implication that several others have tried to make stick.

No it doesn't mean I condone them, it means due to the situation I was in, a hundred miles from home, and concerned that this tree could fall by the next weekend, I made a tough decision weighing circumstance against circumstance.

Maybe sometime you'll get caught in a difficult decision, torn between two issues and see what it's like. Maybe your car will break down a hundred miles from home and place your family at risk and you have to choose between the 'hack' mechanic that can immediately fix your car or wait a week for a factory guy.

Again, it's easy, and cheap, to sit back and be sharply critical of someone when you weren't in their shoes. We don't live in a perfect world, sometimes we compromise when we wish we didn't have to.

But you know, I think any damage done by tree hacks pale in comparison to the damage done to relationships by the harsh, scolding overtones in responses in this thread.

See, I made yet another mistake. I thought I was sharing a difficult experience among friends, but I was wrong again wasn't I?
 
That is different being that I know basically nothing of car care. But I am pretty sure in matters of the three or four subjects that I feel I have pretty good knowledge of, I would adhere to principles i live by even in tough situations. I know you put this thread up for debate, so I'm giving my two cents. I didn't see the tree or the situation so I'm not commenting on how it could have been done, but I saw your video and you and I both know that the way the work was done was contrary to the way modern standards and tree care organizations profess to do things. I'm glad no one was hurt and the work was done as you wanted.
 
Ron,
you should put the video back up for us who didn't see it.
Just think of it as a learning tool. We love you
smile.gif
 
When I read this post this morning I chose not to watch the vid. From Ron's description I realized that I've 'seen it before'.

Since I know Ron I can hear the tone of his voice in his writing. It was evident that he was in a spot. Does that condone spiking, bad cuts and unsafe climbing practices? Nope...but I can understand how sometimes a person can't make the best choice. One of Shigo's Pithy Statements is '70% plus or minus ten' Ron had to make a quick choice and seems to have hit 60%. Better that, given the circumstances, than not to have the work done and risk a failure.

Sometimes life only lets us make the best worst decision. Is it fair to expect a better decision?
 
Sometimes you have to do what you have to do with what you have?! It sounds like you know the "right" way to do the work, sounds like this guy has the "guts?" to get up there and do the job? Get together and teach eachother some stuff, you obviously can show him more modern techniques and I am sure he has a trick or two he can share with you!
 
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Is he on spikes? DUDE! What the hell are you doing hiring a hack?!! Don't you know an arborist or two?

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I'd have to agree w/ Blinky here. Just because it's common practice doesn't make it right. Even in that situation, I would have broken out a few loops runners to use as a step ladder, and even used a long FS or just my climb line to go through multiple crotches for a TIP. What this hack is employing is extremely hazardous to his health. I'm surprised that he has only had 2 accidents in his 30 years so far. Sure, it may be impressive to some, but to others who know better, we cringe, because we see an accident waiting to happen. [/quo

Amen brother!
 
There is always a way to send a running bowline up and secure yourself a good TIP. I missed the video and I'm not judging Ron for his choice, I am just saying in climbing terms that I have never seen a tree (safe to climb) that didn't have a tie in point accessible from the ground. No excuse to spike a tree other than lack of knowledge which is fine, and I'm not mad at people for being uneducated. I justs wish that people would pay a little more than they do for that education. I know how to get up there without spikes but I have to compete with all the people that don't know how because most of the consumers out there don't really really care or are uneducated themselves (or as it sounds like Ron was at the moment, in a pinch).

In my personal opinion, it is bad practice to spike up a tree even for removal without first setting yourself a TIP. I have to really be in a dangerous hurry before I just run up a tree with my buckstrap and spurs. Its just asking for a skinned chest in my opinion. Set a line before you climb. Some people are comfortable with just spurs and a strap, not me.
 
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There is always a way to send a running bowline up and secure yourself a good TIP...

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I didn't see the video... But, I was thinking like Kevin. It is very easy to do, even if you only have a epicormic to use. The running bowline (with a long tail to retrieve) would work well with the Unicender.

But, I didn't see the video, nor was I there. So, maybe it wouldn't have worked.
 
I didn't get to see the video before it was deleted, but I know Ron, too, and would cut him some slack based on being in a Catch 22.

Here in Portland we have a lot of trees, and the suburb I live has one of the strictest tree codes anywhere. About once a week a running chainsaw is within earshot of our house, so I jump on the bike to go check it out. I would say 50% of the time the guys are pruning on spurs. At first, I started making a list. But then I said, what am I going to do with it? When I go on cat rescues, everyone asks why I'm not climbing with spikes.

There is still a ways to go on education.

As far as being able to see something a mile away, this is nice to say in hindsight, but it's just not always possible. For the past 15 years my contractor business has been fixing other people's screw-ups. Basically like the "Holmes on Homes" show, except he made a TV show out of it. Fixing mistakes and poor quality work from licensed, certified, bonded, accredited contractors, who have been in business for 40 years.

Some people talk a good story up front. But you learn, and never use them again.
 
Well Ron, I for one apologize for over reacting. I think you certainly got more of a dressing down than you deserved. Lot of anti-hack arborists here.

You have to make decisions fast sometimes and you do the best you can do. Nobody here or anywhere else can do more than that.
 
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