- Location
- Chattanooga
Post removed.
Looks pretty simple to me...
- Thread starter Ron
- Start date
- Location
- Orange, MA
I dare say for the number of actual cuts he made, and the pussy footing around he did trying to hang onto the skinny uprights with no lanyard around the trunk, modern practices are safer, while still being more time efficient.
At 6:05 hes grabbing the stem like a scared little kitten, where with "modern" practice, a half dozen steps, and a few flips of an adjustable lanyard, and he would have been to his destination quicker, and safer. Not to mention the use of false crotch rigging may not have been any quicker, but may add another useful element if needed.
I realize this post is for the sake of intelligent debate, but I dont see how this method is either more efficient, or intelligent.
Such a narrow crowned tree, making use of a central tie in point, transfers between leads would take seconds, as opposed to minutes of bear hugging the trunk and transferring down low on the stem and having to climb back up. On a rope, just unclip, swing over, clip in, done.
At 6:05 hes grabbing the stem like a scared little kitten, where with "modern" practice, a half dozen steps, and a few flips of an adjustable lanyard, and he would have been to his destination quicker, and safer. Not to mention the use of false crotch rigging may not have been any quicker, but may add another useful element if needed.
I realize this post is for the sake of intelligent debate, but I dont see how this method is either more efficient, or intelligent.
Such a narrow crowned tree, making use of a central tie in point, transfers between leads would take seconds, as opposed to minutes of bear hugging the trunk and transferring down low on the stem and having to climb back up. On a rope, just unclip, swing over, clip in, done.
- Location
- Chapel Hill, NC
Is he on spikes? DUDE! What the hell are you doing hiring a hack?!! Don't you know an arborist or two?
- Location
- Chattanooga
It is really common for arborists around here to use spikes Blinky. I had a guy that has been in the business 40 years do some work for me. His climber used spikes in trees I climb regularly without them.
Also, let me hit this too. There were no high, secure TIPs. These are small leaders, pretty much the entire tree, that lean way out from the tree. The 'leaders' were cut out by the utility contractors when they cleared the line. Look at the pics.
Also, let me hit this too. There were no high, secure TIPs. These are small leaders, pretty much the entire tree, that lean way out from the tree. The 'leaders' were cut out by the utility contractors when they cleared the line. Look at the pics.
- Location
- Lexington, Kentucky
[ QUOTE ]
Is he on spikes? DUDE! What the hell are you doing hiring a hack?!! Don't you know an arborist or two?
[/ QUOTE ]
I'd have to agree w/ Blinky here. Just because it's common practice doesn't make it right. Even in that situation, I would have broken out a few loops runners to use as a step ladder, and even used a long FS or just my climb line to go through multiple crotches for a TIP. What this hack is employing is extremely hazardous to his health. I'm surprised that he has only had 2 accidents in his 30 years so far. Sure, it may be impressive to some, but to others who know better, we cringe, because we see an accident waiting to happen.
Is he on spikes? DUDE! What the hell are you doing hiring a hack?!! Don't you know an arborist or two?
[/ QUOTE ]
I'd have to agree w/ Blinky here. Just because it's common practice doesn't make it right. Even in that situation, I would have broken out a few loops runners to use as a step ladder, and even used a long FS or just my climb line to go through multiple crotches for a TIP. What this hack is employing is extremely hazardous to his health. I'm surprised that he has only had 2 accidents in his 30 years so far. Sure, it may be impressive to some, but to others who know better, we cringe, because we see an accident waiting to happen.
treewill
Participating member
- Location
- Everywhere and nowhere
That was truly pathetic. Any climber worth this 020 could climb that tree without spikes.
Yep, I did one smaller than that( skinny, long epicormic leaders
) no spikes
hack thru and thru Ron 
but I'm betting you had that figured out when he gave you that price...lol
) no spikes
hack thru and thru Ron but I'm betting you had that figured out when he gave you that price...lol
- Location
- Chapel Hill, NC
Ron... think about it my man.
I'm really surprised you didn't seek out a CA for pruning work. You could've asked on here. There's a guy at the Treehouse in Chattanooga.
I understand about the TIPS and all but that's one of the things that makes an arborist... we can still go places like that. ...it's not necessarily FUN, but we can generally get a prune done without gaffing a tree no matter what.
You're forgiven... THIS TIME!
I'm really surprised you didn't seek out a CA for pruning work. You could've asked on here. There's a guy at the Treehouse in Chattanooga.
I understand about the TIPS and all but that's one of the things that makes an arborist... we can still go places like that. ...it's not necessarily FUN, but we can generally get a prune done without gaffing a tree no matter what.
Also, looks like he could have hi-lined it maybe? the other trees look big enuff, I would have done that , then again I have the stuff to DO that
, then again I have the stuff to DO that 
Raven
Branched out member
- Location
- Northwoods
Couldn't even watch the whole thing. There is NOTHING good or efficient about that kind of tree work. Please never hire them again, or give them a good reference. Thank you for sharing without fear of reproach, we won't try to make you feel bad, but there are plenty of arbos on here who would've done a much better job in less time for the same price. Did they have insurance?
Just because he used minimal equipment doesn't make it efficient, just the opposite. By using a climb line with an overhead TIP I could have smoked those trees in 20 mins. each, less than one hour, not two hrs. What kind of "pruning" was that anyway? Certainly not in the best interest of the tree. Guys like this need to wake the cuss up and stop lowballing, looking bad, getting hurt, breaking stuff, and harming trees.
Seriously, if this is the best you've got in your area, give me a call next time. I don't mind a little snowbird style work trip in Jan/Feb, say aren't you close to Georgia?
Just because he used minimal equipment doesn't make it efficient, just the opposite. By using a climb line with an overhead TIP I could have smoked those trees in 20 mins. each, less than one hour, not two hrs. What kind of "pruning" was that anyway? Certainly not in the best interest of the tree. Guys like this need to wake the cuss up and stop lowballing, looking bad, getting hurt, breaking stuff, and harming trees.
Seriously, if this is the best you've got in your area, give me a call next time. I don't mind a little snowbird style work trip in Jan/Feb, say aren't you close to Georgia?
- Location
- Chattanooga
Guys, I respect your comments, I really do. But lets at least be willing to admit that you weren't there and are analyzing a job from some no-so-great pics and video. And guys, I've had direct contact with four arborists in my area, they all use spikes and they aren't hacks.
We've had this conversation about spikes long ago when I posted about the work I had done in my own yard. A number of arborist chimed in to say that in this area, it is common for arborists to use spikes.
Let me ask, if I had showed you the pics and a video (sans the climber, etc.), would you give me a solid quote to do the job without seeing anymore than the pics and vid? I doubt it. That's because you know there are things you can't tell from the pics and video.
I appreciate the safety concerns. I was holding my breath through some of it. My mind was thinking constantly, there's no way I'd do that.
And let's talk about the time constraints and problems with this job. First, I live in Chattanooga. The property is in Knoxville. I had already spent two full weekends taking out a bunch of the bigger, lower limbs. But, when I reached the point that I realized I couln't finish up the second weekend, I knew I needed to get somebody to finish the job. I had to be back in Chattanooga that evening, it was already 3:00 pm, I'd be in school all week with a bunch of startup headaches to deal with, and I needed to get this done. So when opportunity knocked, I grabbed at it. I got a number of references, ran them and not a one had a bad thing to say.
I realize he did things that none of you would do, I know I wouldn't, and I was disappointed at the entire method because I wanted to see 'the right way'; but I had expended all the time and energy I could and really didn't look forward to calling arborists long distance to find out who didn't use spikes.
As for the price being indicative of a 'hack' job, let's review the results. The job was finished in two hours. Nobody got hurt; no property was damaged in any way; the wood was cut up, and hauled off.
We've had this conversation about spikes long ago when I posted about the work I had done in my own yard. A number of arborist chimed in to say that in this area, it is common for arborists to use spikes.
Let me ask, if I had showed you the pics and a video (sans the climber, etc.), would you give me a solid quote to do the job without seeing anymore than the pics and vid? I doubt it. That's because you know there are things you can't tell from the pics and video.
I appreciate the safety concerns. I was holding my breath through some of it. My mind was thinking constantly, there's no way I'd do that.
And let's talk about the time constraints and problems with this job. First, I live in Chattanooga. The property is in Knoxville. I had already spent two full weekends taking out a bunch of the bigger, lower limbs. But, when I reached the point that I realized I couln't finish up the second weekend, I knew I needed to get somebody to finish the job. I had to be back in Chattanooga that evening, it was already 3:00 pm, I'd be in school all week with a bunch of startup headaches to deal with, and I needed to get this done. So when opportunity knocked, I grabbed at it. I got a number of references, ran them and not a one had a bad thing to say.
I realize he did things that none of you would do, I know I wouldn't, and I was disappointed at the entire method because I wanted to see 'the right way'; but I had expended all the time and energy I could and really didn't look forward to calling arborists long distance to find out who didn't use spikes.
As for the price being indicative of a 'hack' job, let's review the results. The job was finished in two hours. Nobody got hurt; no property was damaged in any way; the wood was cut up, and hauled off.
- Location
- Chapel Hill, NC
I understand what you're saying but your tree got hurt.
There isn't an area of the country where spikes are acceptable for prunes, not nowadays. Guys like that are a major factor why arborists are struggling to make a wage commensurate with the difficulty, cost and risk. They need to catch up or go away.
There isn't an area of the country where spikes are acceptable for prunes, not nowadays. Guys like that are a major factor why arborists are struggling to make a wage commensurate with the difficulty, cost and risk. They need to catch up or go away.
- Location
- Lexington, Kentucky
Ron, for one thing, any arborist using spikes to prune a live tree should not be allowed to label themselves an arborist. It's been clearly documented how spikes affect tree health. Even from your video, that tree was totally possible without spikes, and in an efficient manner. I know of many climbers who could have even completed it faster without spikes. Sure, the ones you know who prune with spikes may not be hacks, but they are still causing unnecessary damage to the tree.
Also, where was his helmet, his safety glasses? Same for the ground guy?
Also, where was his helmet, his safety glasses? Same for the ground guy?
Ron, the price is not so much indicative of a hack ( although it is a starter) the work certainly is, cuts are bad, methods are slow and overworked, and safety was not at all on the forefront.
those qualities are what determines a hack
those qualities are what determines a hack
southsoundtree
Been here much more than a while
- Location
- Olympia, WA
Huh?
Trimming or removal?
You are putting us on here, right Ron? This is something you found on YouTube. What was left? A hatrack?
Again, huh?
What kind of distance was this from the primaries?
When someone admits to 2 injuries, there are many, many more.
I wouldn't call his an arborist, just a tree guy with a pick-up and chainsaw. Arborists study the care of trees and work with them for their health and longevity.
Seem like the problem is that the trees are planted under the powerline. Cut them down and start with the right trees for the location and site conditions.
Trimming or removal?
You are putting us on here, right Ron? This is something you found on YouTube. What was left? A hatrack?
Again, huh?
What kind of distance was this from the primaries?
When someone admits to 2 injuries, there are many, many more.
I wouldn't call his an arborist, just a tree guy with a pick-up and chainsaw. Arborists study the care of trees and work with them for their health and longevity.
Seem like the problem is that the trees are planted under the powerline. Cut them down and start with the right trees for the location and site conditions.
And posting something like this on say a rec-climbing site?? ( which to your credit my friend, I do not see )
gives us caring pros a bad name, and cause even more friction between us and strictly rec climbers...I say strictly, because I am a working climber, but I love to rec climb too!
( which to your credit my friend, I do not see )gives us caring pros a bad name, and cause even more friction between us and strictly rec climbers...I say strictly, because I am a working climber, but I love to rec climb too!
- Location
- Chattanooga
[ QUOTE ]
Did they have insurance?
[/ QUOTE ]Yes, both quotes and references.
[ QUOTE ]
...Just because he used minimal equipment doesn't make it efficient, just the opposite. By using a climb line with an overhead TIP I could have smoked those trees in 20 mins. each, less than one hour, not two hrs.
[/ QUOTE ]
If there had been an overhead TIP, I'd have done the work myself; I've done bigger jobs than that.
Again, guys, you know I respect your views, but lets be honest there's a lot of claims going on based on very speculative assumptions, like this mystical TIP that didn't exist in reality.
[ QUOTE ]
...What kind of "pruning" was that anyway? Certainly not in the best interest of the tree.
[/ QUOTE ]
You're right; I wanted the tree taken down and would have paid more to have it removed. But he suggested since it provided shade to the front porch, and sprouts would grow out on it, it may be beneficial to leave it and see.
But no, I had no interest in the tree whatsoever; my total concern was that there was a big, unbalanced tree, with potentially damaging limbs hanging over the house, and on top of that the tree had a lot of decay damage already. So the weight was removed on the heavy side and now we'll see if it becomes beneficial to remove the rest of the tree. If that becomes necessary, I can and will do that myself.
[ QUOTE ]
...Guys like this need to wake the cuss up and stop lowballing, looking bad, getting hurt, breaking stuff, and harming trees....
[/ QUOTE ]
I'm not taking up for the method, but the truth is nothing or no one was hurt or and nothing was broken, and in this particular case, it remains to be seen whether the tree should have been removed as I thought. But either way, there is no danger of damage to the house.
[ QUOTE ]
...Seriously, if this is the best you've got in your area, give me a call next time. I don't mind a little snowbird style work trip in Jan/Feb, say aren't you close to Georgia?
[/ QUOTE ]
I suspect it's not the best we've got nor anywhere near it, but I had to have the tree done this weekend with minimal further intrusion on my time.
I live right at the Georgia border; the trees were a hundred miles away in Knoxville. And sure, if you could swing it there's even more that should be done to one tree. So if things get slow, don't hesitate to let me know.
Unfortunately, the second tree, not videoed, does have some possible TIPs and is a much more conducive tree to better techniques.
Did they have insurance?
[/ QUOTE ]Yes, both quotes and references.
[ QUOTE ]
...Just because he used minimal equipment doesn't make it efficient, just the opposite. By using a climb line with an overhead TIP I could have smoked those trees in 20 mins. each, less than one hour, not two hrs.
[/ QUOTE ]
If there had been an overhead TIP, I'd have done the work myself; I've done bigger jobs than that.
Again, guys, you know I respect your views, but lets be honest there's a lot of claims going on based on very speculative assumptions, like this mystical TIP that didn't exist in reality.
[ QUOTE ]
...What kind of "pruning" was that anyway? Certainly not in the best interest of the tree.
[/ QUOTE ]
You're right; I wanted the tree taken down and would have paid more to have it removed. But he suggested since it provided shade to the front porch, and sprouts would grow out on it, it may be beneficial to leave it and see.
But no, I had no interest in the tree whatsoever; my total concern was that there was a big, unbalanced tree, with potentially damaging limbs hanging over the house, and on top of that the tree had a lot of decay damage already. So the weight was removed on the heavy side and now we'll see if it becomes beneficial to remove the rest of the tree. If that becomes necessary, I can and will do that myself.
[ QUOTE ]
...Guys like this need to wake the cuss up and stop lowballing, looking bad, getting hurt, breaking stuff, and harming trees....
[/ QUOTE ]
I'm not taking up for the method, but the truth is nothing or no one was hurt or and nothing was broken, and in this particular case, it remains to be seen whether the tree should have been removed as I thought. But either way, there is no danger of damage to the house.
[ QUOTE ]
...Seriously, if this is the best you've got in your area, give me a call next time. I don't mind a little snowbird style work trip in Jan/Feb, say aren't you close to Georgia?
[/ QUOTE ]
I suspect it's not the best we've got nor anywhere near it, but I had to have the tree done this weekend with minimal further intrusion on my time.
I live right at the Georgia border; the trees were a hundred miles away in Knoxville. And sure, if you could swing it there's even more that should be done to one tree. So if things get slow, don't hesitate to let me know.
Unfortunately, the second tree, not videoed, does have some possible TIPs and is a much more conducive tree to better techniques.
- Location
- Chattanooga
[ QUOTE ]
Ron, the price is not so much indicative of a hack ( although it is a starter) the work certainly is, cuts are bad, methods are slow and overworked, and safety was not at all on the forefront.
those qualities are what determines a hack
[/ QUOTE ]
I don't disagree at all. But the price was set, so how much time it took was realyl irrelvant unless it got really out of perspective.
But it didn't take a lot of time. From the time he parked his truck until the time he left was two hours almost exactly. It seemed like a lot of work in two hours. BTW, that two hours includes a second tree not shown in the video.
The only real safety issues were to the climber, but again, I don't approve the method either. But he endangered no one but himself.
The higher cuts were puzzling; the final cuts were much different than the section cuts.
If I lived in Knoxville or the trees were on my property, I could/would have handled it differently.
And no, I would not hire them again; but this time they were there, I was in a time bind - that's never good, but their references checked out.
I did not discuss in detail exactly how they'd to the work and if they'd always use a second TIP, or if they'd tie in high, etc., or if they'd free climb, etc., etc., but I did discuss in detail that I did not want tel lines broken, roofs or awning porches damaged and I really emphasized that.
When they started working my only choices were to let them finish and have the job done or make them stop and be stuck with the problem a fourth weekend.
Ron, the price is not so much indicative of a hack ( although it is a starter) the work certainly is, cuts are bad, methods are slow and overworked, and safety was not at all on the forefront.
those qualities are what determines a hack
[/ QUOTE ]
I don't disagree at all. But the price was set, so how much time it took was realyl irrelvant unless it got really out of perspective.
But it didn't take a lot of time. From the time he parked his truck until the time he left was two hours almost exactly. It seemed like a lot of work in two hours. BTW, that two hours includes a second tree not shown in the video.
The only real safety issues were to the climber, but again, I don't approve the method either. But he endangered no one but himself.
The higher cuts were puzzling; the final cuts were much different than the section cuts.
If I lived in Knoxville or the trees were on my property, I could/would have handled it differently.
And no, I would not hire them again; but this time they were there, I was in a time bind - that's never good, but their references checked out.
I did not discuss in detail exactly how they'd to the work and if they'd always use a second TIP, or if they'd tie in high, etc., or if they'd free climb, etc., etc., but I did discuss in detail that I did not want tel lines broken, roofs or awning porches damaged and I really emphasized that.
When they started working my only choices were to let them finish and have the job done or make them stop and be stuck with the problem a fourth weekend.
- Location
- Lexington, Kentucky
[ QUOTE ]
I'm not taking up for the method, but the truth is nothing or no one was hurt or and nothing was broken
[/ QUOTE ]
This is a key here Ron. Sure, nothing hurt or broken, THIS TIME. But what about the next job, or the one after that? He can only get by with so much luck before something happens and an injury occurs or something is broken. His method was hazardous to himself and the trees. I would have thought with your background Ron that you could have seen this a mile away.
I'm not taking up for the method, but the truth is nothing or no one was hurt or and nothing was broken
[/ QUOTE ]
This is a key here Ron. Sure, nothing hurt or broken, THIS TIME. But what about the next job, or the one after that? He can only get by with so much luck before something happens and an injury occurs or something is broken. His method was hazardous to himself and the trees. I would have thought with your background Ron that you could have seen this a mile away.
