Jepson's Buntline?

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Re: Jepson\'s Buntline?

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The Buntline and the Anchor do tie and untie easier than a Scaffold, maybe thats telling you something?

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The buntline breaks as easily as the bowline, so what does that tell you? Nothing


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Can anyone convince me that using the Bowline as an end line attachment point is a bad idea?

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It doesn't sound like you want to be convinced?
 
Re: Jepson\'s Buntline?

hey grover I'm not looking for arguement but I'm sitting with a piece of blue streak with a TSD bowlin hold the beaner in place and take the end of the line and move it up and down like your standing and sitting backin your saddle it dose not take long for the bowlin to lossen that is the reason not to use the bowlin.
Be safe scotty
P.S I used that for along time till I was showed this.
 
Re: Jepson\'s Buntline?

I usually tie a anchor or double fish. No dout using a captive eye vs a standard carab make a difference on what works. Dont think I ever used a bowline, so I can't comment on that part. The anchor and double fish are easy to untie, after you remove the carab.
 
Re: Jepson\'s Buntline?

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hey grover I'm not looking for arguement but I'm sitting with a piece of blue streak with a TSD bowlin hold the beaner in place and take the end of the line and move it up and down like your standing and sitting backin your saddle it dose not take long for the bowlin to lossen that is the reason not to use the bowlin.
Be safe scotty
P.S I used that for along time till I was showed this.

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Thats strange, I have used the Bowline for years and found it to be a great treeclimbing knot.
I will try your experiment though.

I use the Double Fisherman's as an end line knot.
 
Re: Jepson\'s Buntline?

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Dont think I ever used a bowline,

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You probably didn't, you would have remembered, its an excellent knot.
 
Re: Jepson\'s Buntline?

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1. The buntline breaks as easily as the bowline, so what does that tell you? Nothing

2. It doesn't sound like you want to be convinced?

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1. It tells me that the Bowline is a great knot.

2. Why does no one believe me? I have put my life on this knot for the last 10 years, I just wanted to thank this knot publicly,,,,,,,,,

Thank you Bowline for being my friend. Nobody else here appreciates you.
 
Re: Jepson\'s Buntline?

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I agree its an excellent knot, I have never used it in this application.

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Thanks JJackson.
It is indeed an excellent knot.
 
Re: Jepson\'s Buntline?

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The anchor and double fish are easy to untie, after you remove the carab.

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Thats one place they differ fromt the Buntline. It is easy to untie while still attatched to the biner. I like this feature personally. That way, when removing my climbing line from a fork, I can leave my biner clipped to my saddle and pull the unknotted end from the fork. Eliminates one more time when I could drop a steel biner on some poor soul. Thats probably the reason I stick with that knot.

Climb on whatever you feel safe with. I have faith in self preservation and natural selection.
 
Re: Jepson\'s Buntline?

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1. The buntline breaks as easily as the bowline, so what does that tell you? Nothing

2. It doesn't sound like you want to be convinced?

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1. It tells me that the Bowline is a great knot.

2. Why does no one believe me? I have put my life on this knot for the last 10 years, I just wanted to thank this knot publicly,,,,,,,,,

Thank you Bowline for being my friend. Nobody else here appreciates you.

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Maybe you should have called this the "Bowline appreciation thread" instead.
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Bowline Appreciation Society

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Maybe you should have called this the "Bowline appreciation thread" instead.

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Uses for our old friend The Bowline;

1 - Excellent end line knot for climbing
2 - You can even make a harness from a Bowline on the Bight, no carabiners needed at all.Just a rope!
3 - Great rigging knot, used as a running Bowline, the best dayum choking knot for this purpose full stop.
4 - Great knot for dragging timber to chipper and log trucks.
5 - Great for pulling trees over, its that old running Bowline again.
6 - Best knot for pulling trucks outta mud, remember to stick that piece of wood in the top loop of knot though. Makes it easier to undo.
7 - Setting a Single rope access point in the tree, running bowline again.

The list goes on and on and on................

The Bowline - The best knot in Treework!
 
Re: Bowline Appreciation Society

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Maybe you should have called this the "Bowline appreciation thread" instead.

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Uses for our old friend The Bowline;

1 - Excellent end line knot for climbing

The list goes on and on and on................

The Bowline - The best knot in Treework!

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This is not an acceptable use.... read your ansi standards..... the fear is not that you can break the biner side loading, the fear is that you will open it...

use the safest methods possable ( this includes the tree with a crack in it).... if you lean on other peoples knowlege about things that you have not experienced, that that makes you an inteligent person..... this is what the ANSI standards are all about.


Rob


p.s. ANSI does not tell us not to climb a tree with a crack, it just tells us to do a risk assessment proir to climbing, and then make a decision if climbing is an option(this is exactly what i did)
 
Re: Bowline Appreciation Society

The bowline is a very versatile knot that I and I think most climbers use on a daily basis. It was the knot I was taught to use as my attachment knot. Then I learned for reasons previously stated that it is not the best knot for this purpose. I now use the anchor hitch when not using a splice eye. So Grover do what is best for you, but I would consider reconsidering the use of the bowline as an attachment knot. Just because you have been using it for 10 years does not make it right. Good luck and be safe.
 
Re: Bowline Appreciation Society

Jesse, in the previous post, said what I would say.

At one time I did use a bowline on a biner. Then I read about better knots for the application that eliminated the shortcomings.

I teach climbers to tie a rope to a snap or captured eye biner they use an anchor bend. This is very secure and the tail of the rope is fair towards the climbing hitch. A bowline used in this application is loaded in a way that twists and pulls on the knot.

If there is a solution that is incrementally better I use it. In this case, not using a bowline for a rope termination is orders of magnitude less than other, better solutions.
 
Re: Bowline Appreciation Society

I think grover went fishing, and caught alot of fish.....

me too!

The bowline is not infallible, the knot reduces tensile strength of rope severely, it is most suited to static tensioned loads, reacts poorly to dynamic loading/unloading. It is not perfect, it is asymetrical, a bight and a loop marriaged together, a clove is symetrical in everyway.....LONG LIVE THE CLOVE....just joking.

The Bowline shut the City of Toronto Forestry Dept. down for a couple months two years ago. Climber used a bowline in an acceptable manner (closed system) experimented with a new system (open system) and due to the dynamic loading opened up allowing the climber to fall (non fatal). Now we have the MOL probing every facet and crevase of our work wanting to force us to use systems identical to those of the window washer (not discred. ww's, just their systems use for trees)

Aaaaassss weeelll.....I did a drop test last year in front of a class of students into a dyno. DdRT, 4m length (ea. leg) 30cm drop off a desk. Generated 1300lbs of force at the rigging point! Oi-vei! thats about 6kn...and remember grover shock load increases exponentially.

The running bowline; isnt the bowline
The bowline on a bight; isnt the bowline

I can't remember what I used when I was on the closed system, I know what works for me now (actually I'm a attachment knot adulterer, I use a bunch) but more importantly, it is less important to settle on a formula that you'll use for the rest of your career, its more importatnt to be open minded to new developments/innovations/technology/research etc, etc. For it this general mindset that is more defeating than a single issue regarding the strenghts and weaknesses of the bowline.
 
Re: Jepson\'s Buntline?

I learned to tie in with a bowline, but used the tail for my tautline hitch, so there was no way it was coming untied.

Through an earlier site like this one, I learned about the risks of the bowline as termination knot (about the same time I switched to a split tail). I never quite saw the risk, but I trust the wisdom of those who came before me.

I switched to the buntline when TCC came to me and liked it a lot (count me as another who thinks the clove hitch is a piece of art). If you worry about it coming loose, you may be tying it wrong. Buntline is another name for running clove hitch. The second half hitch goes inside the first (towards the biner). When it cinches down, it jams the clove against the biner. No way it's coming loose until you want it to.

Now I use the 2bl fisherman. I like it better because the tail exits parallel to the rope instead of perpendicular to it--less chance of getting hung up on something. Both buntline and fisherman are almost impossible to untie once cinched down, but it's easy to remove the biner, and then the hitch is easy to open.

If you're trolling, you've bagged your limit. If you're serious, you need to learn that you don't know everything. Why would so many reputable sources lie about the bowline? I think bowline is another beautiful knot, but I don't use it in this application.

k
 
Re: Bowline Appreciation Society

i am a real DBY fan; in our lines; when set well; for many things. The life support connection is no longer one of them. Bowline Position Leveraging Krab Warning. i maid myslef learn on a DBY; with tail out top serving cleanly over to Tautline.

i'll use one rigging to krabs all day; but for more single use setups; that are tensioned with krab in right orientation; and not just dropeed into a line. So, in this signle use (lowering); there is about no chance of dis-orientation of the bowline in a krab. Too many sequential loading/unloading of unprotected knot in climbing; asking for some change from the singular, maximum, inline strength position (of krab not being leveraged/ cross loaded). i have Tom to blame for this under-standing.

A Double Bowline gives more stength and security to our lines; if set well. The double ring gives more grip for more security and a softer arc to Standing Part for more strength. But, if not set well; that 2nd tier ring can shift; in that case the 2nd tier becomes more leverged distance of pull to upset knot, than if same force where set from on top of a single ring(L-earned that from the Knude one). Also, are lines are flexible enough not to really fight the 2 ring style; like thicker lines that would try not to stay in bowline shape unloaded.

The Yosemite tie off can similarily be fought by stiffer lines. But, it does add security, and cleans up the eye(in softer lines that lend themselves to this stategy); especially for re-using all day as a temporary eye (like a permananent spliced eye) for loading loaded sling/ krab sets into for rigging etc. So in most our lines i'd recomend both strategies for a DBY, but not in stiffer lines, and always set well. i like making mine quickly using the Slip knot method of making a Bowline (DBY shown) that i can do Blindfolded

Bill'em Dano's referance to "The Grogg's" knot sight is great; been my top, lead knot site listed for years; a very nice man (Grogno is i meant!!
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). Especially nice is the step by step, and animated motion; also reversible etc.; in clear, bright color ABoK # etc. for many knots. i prefer similar my self, only an Anchor to self to form eye(as a Bowline is a SheetBend to self to form eye), or a Double/Triple Noose-Scaffold-Single Fisher Person's whatever. i like my turns untwisted/uncrossed. i think this is stronger and more secure than Anchor. More secure by virtue of buffering loading to the hitch itself on the other side of krab device with same strategy. Stronger, because usually as we come around and bend Standing Part with Bitters, we leverge the line in this area that has also stopped stretching (so is tapered, not flat-freeflow of force). So now more of line's tensile is used up; because the load now consumes the possible tensile with more than a 1:1 ratio of load to tensile strength remaining.

But, if we just bend around krab and make Anchor to self, there is more than 1 turn on Standing Part and i think that more a firming/fortifying the bend and stretch place just before krab, than just making the bend takes place. Kinda like a strain releif on cord etc. i think the turns on Standing by Bitters more uniformly and gradually bend line and also make stretching of line stop gradually; while also compressing/firming this critical area. So these types of hitches we see higher ratings out of; more for Triple, than Double. Notice if we take RoundTurn around Krab, then perform Triple Turn/"Double Anchor"(?) to self/ Noose, the ratings go down. i think that is becasue there is less force left in the Bitters after a Round Turn to perform the firming/stabilizing action. i like my turns uncrossed; so as to more allow the transferance of this 'firming action' with less resistance. Also, more streamlined; as is having the tail follow up the line like a Y-tie off; and 'cleaner' back around krab; as far as end being in your way, and posssibly upsetting it(?). Also, tooo; when the turns are uncrossed; thefinal stage of the Bitters (just before tail goes thru turns) traps into the krab more squarely and firmly (perhaps even slightly 'denting' line). Whereas if turns cross each other, the last part of Bitters before coming up through turns; seems to me to lay beside krab more. i have found in some stiffer lines, the crossing more necessary to trap turns into the stiffer line/ agisnt it's tendency to stragithen out and 'regurgitate' the knot.

So, i think lacing choice depends on strength, security, application, line stiffness, unloading cycles etc.
 
Jepson\'s Buntline

I really appreciate all the feedback on the issue of the Bowline as an end line attachment point for climbing.
As well its other various uses.

Some people made comments about 'trolling' I genuinly dont know what that means, but I can guess it means looking for trouble etc.

I am not trolling with this thread if that is what it means.
Sorry if you think I trolled you.
I only troll MB and Mr Ed for obvious reasons, but it is all good humoured. I like them really. So I will stop trolling them.

I dont use the Bowline as a climbing knot anymore....I have switched to Scaffold.

Tom Dunlap...... are you sure it is a good idea to teach the Anchor hitch as an attachment knot for climbing?
Is the Scaffold not safer for this purpose?
 
Re: Jepson\'s Buntline?

I climbed for years with a bowline. I have recently switched to the scaffold knot as a tie off. I guess I'm just getting older...and, while I've never seen a bowline roll out, I have had them come a little too loose for comfort. Grover, it sounds like you know enough to reliably use the bowline as a tie-in. If you're set in your ways, so be it. It's probably fine for you. I would never teach a new climber to tie in with a bowline, however. "Do as I do, not as I did."
 

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