ISA Cetified Arborist Agreement

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Yeah Jim!!!

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Hey "Tree-D" ...

With all the calls for Skeletons, one earlier post came to mind: ... "There. I hope that disclosure is adequate."

But how about skeletons in the trees. Not literal skeletons, but illegal climbing skeletons.

And in Oregon, there are some tree planting skeletons. Where arborists have planted trees illegally without the required landscape contractor license.

How many of these skeletons will really be "adequate".

It seems that the worst skeletons to omit, would be the skeletons for which there is a record or some kind of proof. Otherwise the fraud or lying could bring bigger consequences.

Maybe a statue of limitations for skeleton age would be a good thing to include.
 
Well Mario, that's a good question. The people the ISA is hunting for will probably do what Grais said, and sign it. Fly low under the radar and NOT work for anyone who may turn them in.

That is the real issue here for me, Joe homeowner may not know what the ISA is, and never turn unethical practitioners in. An unscrupulous arborist isn't going to tell the client anything they don't need to know.

Like Jim said, some communities require ISA certification to even acquire a business licence. Again the ISA is off-loading the responsibility to the licence issuer. This is where the is a short-coming on the ISA's behalf. The term International Society of Arborists isn't a household term. Depending on the country your in the term "Arborist" isn't well known.

Back at you on the "who should be allowed to plant a tree". I have seen homeowners, arborists and landscapers do good, and crappy jobs of planting trees. Each county, state, province......country has rules about what you can and can't be done, and by who. The ISA WAS a knowledge based organization, they have little influence on governing bodies.

Each CA will have to weigh the pros and cons of signing the document the way it stands. A cardboard card isn't going to make a lousy pruner good, nor is it going to make competitors play on a level playing field. It WILL allow the complaints dept. at the ISA be busy, possibly with many un-founded complaints.

Sorry I am sounding like a dick here, but it is the MEMBERS organization. An organization without membership is called an office. What I do know is our chapter Director didn't know anything about the change until I asked him about it. LOL This guy loves meetings and never misses one. So was the memberships voice heard at the ISA table? Maybe, maybe not!
 
I read the 'Arborist Code of Ethics', and that seems fine, all trade related stuff, but this other document, the 'Certified Arborist Agreement', has nothing to do with arboriculture. Won't sign this, and won't hesitate to call myself 'Professional Arborist', or something else besides 'Certified', and to tell anyone who'll listen that the ISA collects personal information on its members that are more related to lifestyle and demographic than professionalism. Is this what membership dollars go towards? Yes, yes, not everything will count; I'm sure the governing board will read about my little altercation with some neo-nazis or my bunk drug charges from the 80's and deem them 'irrelevant' or whatever, and allow me to remain a CA, but what will they do with the information? It becomes their property and the agreement details how they can distribute it to the public (and private) interest groups. What if this agreement conflicts with my constitutional rights? Look us up one day ISA, we're called 'Canada'. Good luck with that piece of crap agreement. Hope someone at ISA reads this forum, but if not, who is the best person there to relay my message of disagreement to?
 
Just continue to voice your opinion to the ISA and hopefully they see the backlash and respond appropriately.Im still waiiting on getting a response from my emails I sent a couple months back.I believe this will hurt the ISA in the long run and they will be forced to abandon the new policies.
 
As the "Agreement" stands right now, which matters the ISA chooses to investigate and those which they choose to overlook are entirely arbitrary. I'm not saying this discretion will be abused, but it is open to abuse.

Would someone like me, who is keeping up the CEU's but has let my membership dues lapse get less of a pass than a lifetime card holder? There is nothing to stop it.

But I think the ISA will take a hard line on keeping this "Agreement" in place.

Go to the ISA's website and search for "ISO". Three recent changes pop up related to the ISA's coveting ISO recognition and accreditation:

1. This whole Ethics boondoggle.

2. CA testing changed to DROP DOMAINS from the format.

3. CA passing grade bumps up from 70% to 72%.

So it seems to me that OUR organization is now beholding to another master, and there won't be much we can do about it.


Northwind
 
Huh, read through this thread but I see no mention of any Cert. Arborist ever having had their cert. yanked for sub-standard arborist work.

Does the 'policing' go both ways, or not?

Can anyone help with this question?
 
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Huh, read through this thread but I see no mention of any Cert. Arborist ever having had their cert. yanked for sub-standard arborist work.

Does the 'policing' go both ways, or not?

Can anyone help with this question?

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Are you wondering if that means it's the "calm before the storm"
 
"Are you wondering if that means it's the "calm before the storm" "

No, I was wondering if any cert. arborists had ever had their cert. yanked because of sub par work
 
I got a reply from an email to the certification board and to the president - it basically says that this 'boondoggle' of ISO recognition as Northwind mentioned. Lots of tip-toeing around how the certification board will evaluate reports, or 'confessions', but that it will stay within the confines of the ISA. Can't say I've read ISO standard 17024, but if it requires that we report 'any and all', and 'quasi-criminal'. . . What benefit does ISO recognition give the ISA?

Most arguments seem simple when reduced to extremes, and here's 2:
- a climbing CA gets busted for being a 'peeping tom' while in a tree. Climbs up at night, videos people having sex, etc. This might be a good example of something being ISA's business.

- a CA is involved in a traffic accident while working. A civil suite follows, where the CA is found to be not at fault, and wins a counter-suit for defamation of character. A good example of something not being ISA's business.

There's too much grey area in there for the ISA to deal with and be legitimate about saying they are dealing with it. Is this a way of backing themselves up if someone does turn out to be a psycho who starts dropping trees on playgrounds for fun?

I've got nothing to say to them in regards to the Certification Agreement anyway, but I won't have much to say to them even if I do sign it. If I can't find a nicer logo to sign on with until I get the paper, can't say what I'll do for sure.
 
Y'all are forgetting that the "S" in ISA is "Society". To me, that means WE are the ISA; not just the dillholes who write crap up like this.

Seems like WE didn't get any representation in the matter.

They fooked up. Period.

And BTW... they're full of chips when they mention the ISO reasoning. Completely.
 
Seems to me that the ISA has no business gathering or asking for this kind of information, unless they at the very least:

1. Declare who has access to the information.
2. State how it will be stored: electronic, hard copy
3. List security measures
4. Voluntarily provide security breeches

If everybody sent in those forms, that's a tremendous amount of sensitive information, plenty of which may not even be public record.

Anyone with access to the files could see it.

If it was on a computer, its possible that any other computer that could connect with the network would be able to download the sensitive information.

It could potentially open the door and temptation for threatening CAs if the wrong people got their hands on the information.

The security network must be guaranteed for something like this.
 
Funny how this topic originated around the 4th of July Holiday. I wonder what our Founding Fathers, who were the biggest criminals of all in 1776 for openly rebelling against the government, would have to say about this principle? Would ISA have allowed them into the 'Society'.

To me this proposal absolutely stinks.
 
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Is anyone else a fan of Patrick McGoohan's mid-60's show "The Prisoner'?

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Me...great sound track too
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And BTW... they're full of chips when they mention the ISO reasoning. Completely.

[/ QUOTE ]erik if you think all this is not done for ISO reasons, what is your thought on the reasoning?

After looking at ISO 17024 groups i found none that had such an onerous disclosure policy. but i do believe these policies are the ISA Certification Department's (let's not blame the entire organization) reaction to the ISO cert; just a gross overreaction. The text seems like a poorly written effort to be comprehensive, which turned out so broad it cannot be followed truthfully and honestly.

It's ironic that an organization that was founded on a scientific quest for truth and knowledge about arboriculture has grown branches that are so cynical. time to get back to the roots, and the Mission. How does this policy "Through research, technology, and education promote the professional practice of arboriculture and foster a greater public awareness of the benefits of trees."

I'm just looking back on yesterday, trying to add up the stuff i did that others may consider "quasi-criminal".
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Are you saying that the cert. board acted to make a major policy change to the ISA without bringing it to the board for evaluation and input before instituting this new policy?

Seems like any major policy change should be brought to the board to be discussed, BEFORE a policy change is effected. After all, this effects the entire ISA membership.

Also, the 'I' in ISA stands for International, so how will this apply on an international basis?
Laws are different in different countries.

All things considered, the fact remains that organizations have the right, and more often than not exercise that right, to create any rules that they want. If any isa c.a. has a beef with this, they may as well get over it or leave the organization. The ink is dried on this matter.

The isa has made it very clear from the get go that any discussion about this is just that, a discussion. The end result will not change any policy or rule on their part.

The only issue that I see is the direction that the isa is going with all this. Is the isa an organization which is dedicated to improving the standards of aboriculture? Or are they focused on other issues?
I originally bought into the isa because I was under the impression that they were on the forefront in the struggle to raise arboricultural standards. But if they do nothing to enforce these standards within their own membership, what is their focus exactly?

Still bothers me that no c.a. has ever had their cert. yanked for doing business in a way that is against the principals and guidelines set down by the isa, yet a c.a. can now have their cert. yanked for things having nothing to do with arboriculture.

To me this means that the main focus of the isa is not advancing arboriculture nor to even promote existing proper arboricultural practices. It makes me uncertain exactly what the isa is all about.

Interesting and telling to me that even the one most active 'moderator' of this web forum, (which is purported to be a definitive leader in all things arboriculture), has not addressed this point. Instead choosing to delve into other disparate, philosophical issues... (kind of like consulting JD Powers and associates (a bought and paid for agent of the car companies) on the relative merits of different automobiles...

Because of this I cannot help but to get the impression that perhaps this site (or the moderator) is influenced in some way by the isa...
Remember all, this moderator is active in certain boards and other governing bodies which are closely related to the isa, if not a direct part of the isa. FWIW...
 
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