How do you dress and set your Yosemete?

Mahk,

ON ROPE shows a different way of tieing off a bowline. They take the bitter end and wrap it behind then back down. The extra loop you see it the tie off. The reason given for doing it that way is to keep the tail protected, inside the bite.
 
i try to remember, quietly thank my sources as i play/werk; even if it is you's guys........

But, i really don't know where i saw the jacked bowline thing; it does seem it was a rough pencil drawn, shipyard thing; more towards Mr. Harvey Garret Smith's more detailed sketches, than Mr. Ashley's comprehensive bible. These 2 tried to capture the fading art and mechanichs of previous generations at sea, for their own generation. And even generation(s) later we are still lucky to have them, and haven't yet sifted all of the meaning and mechanichs of their patterns.

But, when L-Earning the slipknot bowline; the knowledgebase helped, for i caught myself making the jacked virgin on occasion, and caught it. The slip knot method is easy to me, especially for any double ring bowline; making like a sewing helper to thread an eye. Also, a chuckle as the tree comes to the rabbit/as the mountain to Mohammed(; and remeber Daniel teasing me about doing/looking at everything backwierdz... i'm just a fool for a good time). Grabbing the wrong leg while making the slipknot bowline, gives me the jacked bowline. So, the slipknot method continues to be my flexible favorite method of making bowlines.
 
Lets say something around $50 or less for 120'.

[/ QUOTE ]
wespur sells a 12 strand called forestry pro for 59.00 for 120'. I believe Yales Maverick is similar in price...I would be interested in hearing any reports on either of these, so buy both and tell us about them!
 
Tree Spyder, nice job on showing exactly why the Sheet Bend is less secure than the bowline even though the knots are the same....I always wondered why that was, now I know.
 
Lots of knot names get confusing, especially in the olde stuff. That is why i maid referance to: "...round turn/double/mountaineering" bowline. As, i've accepted all 3 names for the same knot. i've seen different renditions of this 'jacked bowline'; but visually and mechanically have accepted 'jacked to the side' as the proper meaning, for my own considerations etc.

i think Maverick is a 12strand with polyolefin fibers like ArborPlex (Samson) and ArborPlus(Wall). Charachteristically, i think 12 strands can be lighter because of no core. i think you can flatten a 12 strand, which has the plus of being weakened/leveraged less on a curve (like around a log, flatrope/webbing having more of this charachteristic; by presenting even less leveragebale length on the leveraged axis of a bight). But if the rope is moving (like lowering);then presents more of itself to be abraded. i think 12 is 'nubbier', making it easier to hold on to, but then friction hitch doesn't slide as well. For 16 strand is smoother/rounder like a stop sign is rounder than a square. So, we used to say that 12 strand was a begginning climber's line; with more 'stops'/catches; and 16's depicted as a 'faster' line for descending.

i think polyolefin fibres are cheap, hamburger helper fibers that are stiffer, weaker and less reat resistant; along with being lighter(making the 12's maid with them even lighter). i think Samson TruBlue is much better than their ArborPlex; simply by taking this hamburger helper polyolefin out, and maintaining the same size line(mebbe beefing that up a hair); only maid with real polyester. Polyolefin satisfying rope diameter requirements, without the weight or strength. In fact the undyed white line has a potential strength advantage inthe same materieal and diameter, for the molecules of dye take up so much space, that fibres then can't(so might expect TrueBlue to be weaqker than ArborPlex; except fer polyolefin). The stiffer polyolefin fibers can break easily and give rope a 'hairier'/rougher feel; like manilla. This can help buffer forces inside the microcosm of a knot, and help lock it better too. Many dependable knots fell from favor and safe use when manilla line faded from use that locked itself so, and became replaced with the stronger, longer lasting slippery synthetics that didn't have this advantage. In lowering etc., those broken sitff fibres sticking out can be hard on hands too i think.

That effect isn't seen too much in braided NE 16 strand (polyolefin isn't in the SB 3 strands)SafetyBlue (comes in neon green too now); as the polyolefin strands are buried in each of the 16's and doesn't seem to surface for hand and heat contact.

TrueBlue is a real good, long lasting 12strand; but mostly i stay with 16's, and really don't go much fer 12's; especially w/polyolefin. Never tried Maverick; but that is my breakdown of line considerations.
 
[ QUOTE ]

Mateo;

Is the last of your photos upsidedown from the first two? I had trouble following what you did until it occured to me that that is what happened.


[/ QUOTE ]

Yes. Sorry if that was confusing.

mateo
 
[ QUOTE ]
Here is how I do it, and I was wondering if it's correct, because it differs slightly from what Jepson has in the Climber's Companion. But I think this looks neater! mateo

[/ QUOTE ]

Boy, this thread is generating a slew of confusions to chase, and I'll do my best ... !

Firstly, to the OP, you are correct in noting that <u>On Rope II</u> (&amp; 1st ed.) illustrate
a DIFFERENT dressing. (TreeCo, look closely.) Your dressing has the end making a 1-dia
bend around one leg of the eye, whereas another dressing has the end bending more
nearly 2dia, around both one eye leg and the SPart (in a non-perpendicular way).

I've always regarded the YoBowl as a lame way to secure the Bowline. The need for
security in climbing/caving kernmantle ropes arises because they are rather stiff &amp; slick,
and the unadorned Bwl loosens (which can lead to coming untied or to capsizing upon
loading--neither being desired!).
But precisely this need to accommodate stiffness begs the question of using a tie-off
that somewhat requires the end to make a 1-dia bend! Moreover, the binding of
the end by the knot's collar bight is a bit dubious--the collar is also of this
stiff material and so won't readily wrap around 2 circles but form more of a 'U' shape
within which the end &amp; SPart can shift and lose binding. (3 round cross sections
better approximates a circle to wrap around, not just the two.)

Arborists use some ropes that are more flexible, and one can see the knots being
more easily drawn up (an antagonist to this is the notoriously stiff PMI MaxWear!).

There is some risk that the YoBwl will be disoriented upon setting if one is careless;
in the 1st ed. of <u>On Rope</u>, the chapter cover page photo of two loops
shows a poorly dressed Fig.8 and a grossly misformed YoBwl, where the SPart now
bends around but ONE dia.--the turn of the end having been pulled free of the
SPart's loop/roundturn.

And there's a simple alternative with similar tuck, as shown being tied in the bight,
at www.iland.net/~jbritton/KnotPhotoContributions.html
in which the end's tuck makes an Overhand (and which end could serve qua SPart).

The End-Bound Dbl.Bwl is made by following that <u>On Rope</u> illustration 3-9a
and then continuing to around behind the knot and right back through the hole
adjacent to the first end-tuck--a loop-de-loop finish, if you will. This loop thus
binds the turns of the Bwl and keeps them from loosening, when set; the binding
turn however is not loaded by knot use, so doesn't jam (indeed, if not set pretty
tight, when the knot's loaded the reduction in rope dia. from elongation will actually
create a small gap between binding loop material and what's bound). Whether
one needs such security is a separate question; the EBDB takes a bit more fiddling
to untie.
Another simple securing of the Bwl can be had by taking the end around the legs
of the eye almost as shown in <u>On Rope</u> 3-8a--BUT BLACK ARROW SHOULD
come around OVER BOTH legs--and then tuck the end out as a half-hitch,
going under itself AND through the "hole" (this is more easily seen looking at
the knot from the other side. "doubly tucked half-hitch" I'd call it. What it does
in enable the Bwl's "hole" (loop) to be held pretty secure, enough to prevent the
SPart from feeding into it &amp; loosening. (Set w/iterative pressing HH up against
knot, pulling eye leg, pulling end.)

&gt; Because it has a bigger radius bend (2 parts of rope) at the "horseshoe",
&gt; it adds about 5% strength to the knot.

Remarks about which form is stronger should be dismissed as irrelevant, for strength
shouldn't be much concern if working within work-load limits (safety factor);
where some misjudgement of rope strength vs. load occurs, it probably will not
fall within the relatively small difference between knots--YMMV. In any case, for
these two versions/dressings of the YoBwl, the SPart's bend is really the same (around
2 dia), and its critical geometry at crunch time could depend as much on setting and
rope type as the dressing. The "horseshoe", which I take to be the "collar", isn't where
the knot breaks, surely--rather, somewhere in the "hole"/loop turn, unless one has
dressed &amp; set the knot with the collar drawn extremely snug! (In many yachting
photos of Bwl.s, one can see a quite loose/large collar such that the crossing of
the SPart's loop barely touches (en route to opening further, into a sort of coil,
en route to capsizing if ... ). It's a different story re the Sheet Bend.

-------
A word re TreeSpyder's remarks about ropes of polycombo (PS+PP) vs. pure PS:
it should be the case that one will begin to see "copolymer" oelfin fibres used vice
PP, and these fibres have much greater strength than PP--nearly as much as PS,
yet still with PP's lightness of being. I should think that the "filler" PP fibers not only
lighten the rope but also give a different and perhaps preferred handling characteristics
--the PP being flexible yet a bit springy!?

-------
A word re words: "bight" is the shape, not "bite" (as in "Bowline with a bight").
"ring-loading" is a good term for the isolated loading of a loopknot's eye, as
e.g. TreeSpyder shows in one image. This loading can spill a ("right-handed")
Bowline; a (so-called) "left-handed" one will tend to lock in a form known as the
Lapp Bend. (Anecdote of SAR trying to hoist injured climber by clipping into Bwl eye
and having it spill and kill him. A similar loading could result from something being
caught in the eye as a load is lowered. So, a reason to chose the "wrong" Bwl!)

"slip-knot": this is solidly confused. Ashley defines it as the Overhand knot with
the end finished with a bight, for easy untying, in contrast to the simple noose where
the SPart forms the bight. The latter is what one wants for that whizz-bang tying
of a Bwl--essentially forming a Marlinespike Hitch and then putting the end into it
as its object. I would NOT want to depend on that tying method working automatically
--it's too easy to see the end being pulled free before that noose in the SPart grabs
it and capsizes into the Bwl!

As for "Jacked", what TreeSpyder shows is quite diffferent from what Tom points to:
the former is known as the Eskimo Bwl, related to that Lapp bend; the latter the
"Dbl.Bwl", as someone notes, and also "Round-turn Bwl".

Which leads to the problematic "round turn": facing a tree, if the rope runs around
and back to ya, it's a "turn"; one more wrap makes a "round turn", by common
parlance. But what if the rope goes around the tree and AWAY from ya?
In degrees, 180 &amp; 540 are the agreed cases (as in "Round Turn &amp; Two Half-Hitches");
but what of 360, 720deg. ? --a muddle! But the "round-turn Bwl" took the 720deg
dble.turn as one not two RTs.
.:. You'll encounter differences on this (but "RT&amp;2HH" is quite common &amp; old).


*knudeNoggin*
 
i wuz fixin to write ya and drag you into this...

The 'slip-knot' method and DBY i think both work better in our arbo more flexible 1/2" lines, that i'm used to handling. But, both have detractions as the lines grow larger and/or stiffer. 1 of the top reasons i like the DBY, is i make a DBY as a temporary eye in the end of a line, and hook krabs into it all day. So,, with the Y-tie off; the eye is 'cleaner'; tail is out of the way; working the krabs in and out is more like working with a spliced eye. i think the Y-tie off in a single bowline isn't as good as a regular stopper; but when combined with a roundturn security, becomes acceptable fer me in our 'average' 1/2" arbo lines.

The polys do have some helpful charachteristics, but aren't heat friendly, cost strength from same diameter, and are rough on hands as rope runs through i think.

Remarks about which is stronger at 5% increase really ain't much, but then along with added security. But; also a technician who is riding point/making decisisons should have a perpetuation of a mantra of polishing each point to 'equitable maximum'. If this act of greater strength and security so simply maintains and insitills that; i think it not tooo bad a thang! Also, i think a DBY, has a smoother, more well balanced feel to your eye, that is more instanaeously spot checkable; a virtue/quanity i have come to respect from all the comments of the mountaineering/rescue bretheren sticking with the family of 8's.

i think the RT+2HH is the simple standard of reliability to measure most other lacings by. i think slipknot is a lil'confusing, but the way i've seen it expressed. Points well taken on the marlinspike well taken; but it is kinda like a slipped overhand stopper too.

Always a pleasure, and education KN!
 
Btw, for those w/<u>On Rope 2nd ed.</u>, note that the images for the so-called
"Three-Coil Prusik" got mistakenly flipped upside-down, and thus show a friction
hitch that won't generate (enough) friction to grip! The accompanying text was given
a slight change--only a word or two needed change--to match. This sort of brain-dead
bookmaking irks me (presumably done by editer[sic]).

As for polyolefin (which seems a weasel term to cover whether it's polypropylene
or polyethylene (but also copolymer) in actuality) fibers giving a hairy feel, that might
best be taken as a wear/replace indictor: in arbo ropes (as in some others used e.g. in
commercial marine/fishing), the PP is interior, and will only be felt if broken and
extruding. (There are interesting ropes in which the fiber types are equally on the
in-/ex-terior.)

*knudeNoggin*
 
ChuckR, One more Rope possibility-Columbia Ropes-They have perhaps three color combos of 12 strand that is similar to Arborplex but knots a bit better. About $45 for a hank. I don't like it as well as I do P.Ivy, Yellowjacket, ArborMaster and Saftey Blue----But I have a hank of it , have climbed on it and found it quite good for simple "old school" climbing but a bit stretchy (Due to the shape changing of a soft 12 strand when loaded) when you have a lot of line out.
 

New threads New posts

Back
Top Bottom