HH2 Hitch Length

DSMc said:
There seems to be two, most referenced, knee ascenders, the SAKA mini and the HAAS. I use the HAAS Velox and it just stays on for the entire climb, clipped in when needed, out of the way but ready when not.

The HH2 on Velocity is bomber, a great setup that needs no backup. If how you are using it does not give you that feeling it most likely not set up properly. Spend a little more time working with it and see what you can do. You do not want to use a backup in compensation for a primary life support tool that is not working as it should.
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I'm on Vortex, which I'm learning that 1/2" line somewhat limited my options for mechanicals. BUT, one other thing that seems like would be a preferred choice is to have non-toothed cams. Maybe it doesn't matter for non-shock-loading devices (i.e., ones that aren't for backup or fall arrest).

HH2 on the Vortex has seemed pretty great so far, but I also have basically no experience with it. When I fell right at the ground this past weekend, I remembered I was actually using Safety Blue because I had it within arm's reach, a little 50' piece of it. Haha
 
I've never tried the HAAS but I know it's more expensive, and I see no benefit to it over the SAKA mini. Although I feel the HAAS should work just as well. Even the homebuilt ones should work fine. Looking at the HAAS or the SAKA, they are very simple in construction to build. But I feel that it might be hard to buy the components for less price than the SAKA mini. If you already have an extra ascender that would work, some webbing, some shock cord... then sure, save some money. But if you need to buy an ascender anyways, I don't see a reason not to buy a SAKA.

If you're concerned about a backup in a ropewalking setup... you use both of your hands above the HH2 to steady yourself on the climbing line. You could stick an ascender up there, and grab it with your hand an push it up as you go. Just gotta remember to bring it down with you when you descend.
 
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Hand ascender tied to saddle would be great.

Only thing that potentially bothers me about a backup above the hitchhiker vs. below is that the hitchhiker will collapse if the backup falls on it. If the backup was mechanical AND below the hitchhiker, it could be loaded from the top without failing, correct? Whereas any hitch would be useless as a secondary connection to life line if it was guaranteed to fail when the primary fails, from it being positioned below the primary.
 
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LordFarkwad said:
Hand ascender tied to saddle would be great.

Only thing that potentially bothers me about a backup above the hitchhiker vs. below is that the hitchhiker will collapse if the backup falls on it. If the backup was mechanical AND below the hitchhiker, it could be loaded from the top without failing, correct? Whereas any hitch would be useless as a secondary connection to life line if it was guaranteed to fail when the primary fails, from it being positioned below the primary.
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Good point.
 
Sounds like I'm headed towards saka/Haas and a foot ascender.

I wouldn't mind using one of those Kong rollNlock imitations (edit: Duck) as a secondary below the hitchhiker. Yeah/nay?
 
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LordFarkwad said:
... I wouldn't mind using one of those Kong rollNlock imitations (edit: Duck) as a secondary below the hitchhiker. Yeah/nay?
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Nay. One of the attributes of the multisenders is their ability to slip, dissipating force under excessive loads. It is a nice safety feature.
 
DSMc said:
Nay. One of the attributes of the multisenders is their ability to slip, dissipating force under excessive loads. It is a nice safety feature.
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So...does this mean that I want a backup that does not interfere with multiscender slipping? The failure I'm thinking of involves something like my hitch not grabbing, or me goofing up and placing my hand in the wrong spot, touching the top of the HH's hitch, etc., etc. A valid solution could be something like, "well, don't do that", but in lieu of that - and acknowledging that I screw up from time to time - I'd like the consequence of me screwing up to be something less dramatic than death or permanent disability.

Edit: I guess then, that I'd want a back-up that wouldn't catch until some distance was traversed that would have allowed the multiscender to grip, if it indeed was going to grip again. Is that what you're saying?
 
LordFarkwad said:
So...does this mean that I want a backup that does not interfere with multiscender slipping? The failure I'm thinking of involves something like my hitch not grabbing, or me goofing up and placing my hand in the wrong spot, touching the top of the HH's hitch, etc., etc. A valid solution could be something like, "well, don't do that", but in lieu of that - and acknowledging that I screw up from time to time - I'd like the consequence of me screwing up to be something less dramatic than death or permanent disability.

Edit: I guess then, that I'd want a back-up that wouldn't catch until some distance was traversed that would have allowed the multiscender to grip, if it indeed was going to grip again. Is that what you're saying?
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It sounds like you want something like this. It travels the rope with you, in the event of a fall the quick descent causes it to grab the rope. http://www.treestuff.com/store/catalog.asp?item=1878

looks like it is designed for a kernmantle rope and requires a shock absorber. For ascent alone if you use a knee ascender it would be on the rope below your multiscender and would prevent it from slipping down past that point.
 
Jehinten said:
For ascent alone if you use a knee ascender it would be on the rope below your multiscender and would prevent it from slipping down past that point.
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This is why they say you have a beautiful mind...

I didn't even think of this. For my purposes, the knee ascender blocking the HH from falling down the rope is absolutely good enough as a 'backup'.
 
So whatever ascender is used for the knee, they can usually be loaded from the top without releasing, I guess?

I said this was 'good enough', but, thinking about it further, would the shock loading from such a scenario make the knee ascender likely to cut the cover of, or otherwise damage the life line?
 
LordFarkwad said:
This is why they say you have a beautiful mind...

I didn't even think of this. For my purposes, the knee ascender blocking the HH from falling down the rope is absolutely good enough as a 'backup'.
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In all other aspects of climbing you could back it up with a slip knot. During ascent your ropewalking would pull out a slip knot unless it was below the foot ascender.

Obviously do what you need to, to be comfortable, but the only times my HH2 did not grab reliably it would either creep down the rope very slowly or just not grab the rope after an ascent (before I got it dialed in) either time pushing up on the hitch cord made it grab.
 
Jehinten said:
In all other aspects of climbing you could back it up with a slip knot. During ascent your ropewalking would pull out a slip knot unless it was below the foot ascender.

Obviously do what you need to, to be comfortable, but the only times my HH2 did not grab reliably it would either creep down the rope very slowly or just not grab the rope after an ascent (before I got it dialed in) either time pushing up on the hitch cord made it grab.
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Yeah - the slip knot backup precludes speedy (intentional) descent, it would seem.

Sliding down the rope at ground-level a few days ago, coupled with seeing the backup that Chisholm had in his system in the pro-tip vid made me want to have a mechanical backup in the system (I only say 'mechanical' because it seems like many/most of them can be loaded from the top, making placing them below another system a non-issue in the event of a failure of the higher point of attachment). The HH2 would have caught as soon as my hand came off the dog bone, most probably, but this did make me want to have a backup, and I felt a little validated after hearing someone with rapport say that a secondary connection to the life line was essential.

BUT, all that being said, I totally didn't think of the foot/knee ascenders as backups, and if either/both of these would stay locked onto the climbing line if the HH2 above them failed and slid down onto them, then that totally works for me, provided the knee ascender will not shred the line if shock loaded with a top impact.
 
I would suggest working with your primary system. Learn to trust it. Worst case you may have to pinch the friction hitch to help it initially bite. I have had mine creep really bad when set for minimal friction / grab, then it rained. Even then just twisting the whole friction hitch made it workable. I did re tie once that climb was complete, adding a a wrap. Adding an extra wrap or two may make it super grabby, if a bit annoying to tend.

You should always landyard in before reweighing your system and test it. There should be no need to have a back up system. Not saying you can't, do what is most comfortable for your climb.

There should be no real world scenario where you can shock load a rope walking system (?apart from TIP failure?). If used correctly / mindfully. That said in my mind they could only be used during ascent as a back up. Any decent / finess positioning, it will not function as you may wish. Negating your needs.

It sounds like a good rec climb with a mentor may be very helpful. For me volunteering / attempting, climbing events has been massively helpful. (Being a tech in the tree at a work climb / rescue is the best IMO) So many helpful people that love to share their experiences and passion. Seeing others tackle problems with different techniques and skill sets. Elevated my thinking and confidence towards climbs.
 
Tom Lynch said:
It sounds like a good rec climb with a mentor may be very helpful. For me volunteering / attempting, climbing events has been massively helpful. (Being a tech in the tree at a work climb / rescue is the best IMO) So many helpful people that love to share their experiences and passion. Seeing others tackle problems with different techniques and skill sets. Elevated my thinking and confidence towards climbs.
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I found a guy locally who does private tree climbs, and works with SRT some, so I'm going to buy some of his time to help me out with all of this at some point in the next few months, as his schedule allows.

I've given up on asking tree service folks around here; that's going nowhere, and I've bugged about everyone I know to call.
 
Tom Lynch said:
You should always landyard in before reweighing your system and test it. There should be no need to have a back up system. Not saying you can't, do what is most comfortable for your climb.
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Agreed, and my preference is to always be tied in twice. But since that isn't possible and/or practical when ascending, I'm looking for something that, if any component fails, won't result in catastrophic consequences.
 
I have traded in groundy work, just to check out other outfits. Allows me to be there with out anyone investing much. Some time they are nice and pay a bit of cash or lunch. The idea is I can see what they do and how the crews "feel". As well as how efficient of climbing they expect. The spectrum is massive.
 
Tom Lynch said:
I have traded in groundy work, just to check out other outfits. Allows me to be there with out anyone investing much. Some time they are nice and pay a bit of cash or lunch. The idea is I can see what they do and how the crews "feel". As well as how efficient of climbing they expect. The spectrum is massive.
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Hmmm - very interesting idea. Perhaps I could try to offer that and see how it goes.

Preference would definitely be a 1-on-1 session of some kind, or even a competition, as some here have pointed me towards already.
 
SAKA mini is in my cart at WesSpur - but I'm wondering what kind of tooth pattern does it have? It seems like I'd want to go with ribbed cams, for rope wear (and her pleasure). Is this not a concern with most ropes (Vortex, specifically)?
 
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