I came in this industry motivated. Pumped up on the idea, working any where I want. Trees are every place you go right? Then why get the credentials threw the organizations? I have every credential threw the T.C.I.A, I.S.A, I.A.A. I have worked for companies little and big. The Idea I got was, You work hard, study and obtain knowledge and the paper work that shows your in the mix of things in are industry. Then tell me why we can't negotiate? why they rather have a employee who comes into work and builds nothing to show for his craft? Is it because, they are cheap and give less conflict. There seasonal or they are less to make a claim when they get hurt. Many don't get involved in the industry because they don't have any group policing are credentials. I get it cost money. But, as a dieing breed of worker, I have to say, This industry needs to show that are credentials mean something. That hard work pays off and proving your involvement and wearing your heart on your sleeve for what you love should mean something. If you have a certified climber wanting the job who is worthy and checks out, compared to a guy who is saying I have done this for ten years and I know such and such, also he is asking for less pay. It entitles him to the job? I feel strong about giving the credit to the proven man who has made a claim where he stands. This Industry has lost it's face and heart for who touches this nations trees. I feel strong we need to have credited men and women touching these trees. Companies who are playing the race and pay game, well karma is a mofo. And the Industry should do something about this. Or are organizations and nation will lose more than gain in all aspects.
Getting your paper.
- Thread starter Limbgrabber
- Start date
- Location
- Rhode Island
In my opinion, if you have a guy that has been doing this 10+ years and still isn't ISA certified, it tells me that he probably hasn't progressed much in those 10 years. I realize that this may not always be the case, but it makes sense to me. If I had a company and I had two people apply, one has done this for 20 years but isn't certified and the other one has done it for 2 or 3 years and is actively working towards his certification and shows that he thrives to be the best he can, I would much rather hire the guy with 2 or 3 years.
I worked with a guy doing ROW clearing and he has been climbing for 30 years or so he says. He was the slowest climber I have ever seen. I don't mean taking his time to be safe. I mean taking breaks, smoking cigarettes and just being slow getting his line set up. I am not saying all older climbers are slow by any means, I am just pointing out that 10, 20 or 30 years doesn't really mean much to me. Someone said in another thread that a lot of the time 10 years has just been that first year repeated. Makes sense.
I worked with a guy doing ROW clearing and he has been climbing for 30 years or so he says. He was the slowest climber I have ever seen. I don't mean taking his time to be safe. I mean taking breaks, smoking cigarettes and just being slow getting his line set up. I am not saying all older climbers are slow by any means, I am just pointing out that 10, 20 or 30 years doesn't really mean much to me. Someone said in another thread that a lot of the time 10 years has just been that first year repeated. Makes sense.
- Location
- mon co, nj
Someone told me just the other day(Tuesday to be exact) "You may think the certifications are worthless, but someday the job you are looking for will require them and...you will be the guy who has them." After about 18 plus yrs in the industry I started to pick up a cert here and a cert there to hopefully make myself more marketable. Only a few guys I worked for cared. Most services around where I am from laugh when you bring it up...
Fairfield
Participating member
- Location
- Bucks County pa USA
cuttenwolf, Dont give up on bettering your self with certs. I too thought the same thing at one time. After spending five years at a rescue squad but not stopping getting climbing certs and arbo certs, I have been given a chance at a great sounding job back doing arbo work! stay on the track you are right now.
frashdog
Branched out member
- Location
- Champlain valley, adirondack coast
You're over qualified. What incentive does a company have to pay for a $martypants with minimal industry experience. You may be seen as a gamble maybe even a risk to those who do not know better.
Tree work is a business, most demand is for cheap work and cheap workers. Customers dictate what the industry sells. Customers need to be educated. Who has time for that? I try, some times it works and makes me feel good, but most times I just have to be the low bidder.
In the last 4 years, only one customer, for a church wanted an "certified arborist". I made $425. The people at the church did not care about proof, nor did they have any clue what ISA was.
I have 4 year degree in environmental science that helped me pass the ISA exam. Personally, I thought the exam was easy.
I also felt the ISA exam avoids some industry pertinent issues, like how to actually do tree work. I understand they could possibly incur liability issues if they approached some of these missing topics in depth. Anyways...that's all another discussion.
As a business owner and knowing what the ISA exam is about, I could care less about it at this point in time. If you show me you are safe, efficient, professional and can recognize what quality is in in our profession.... you're in. Yea experience clearly does not mean quality or qualified as many tree guys around here prove. Dudes bragging about 35 years experience and the tragedy is they've been doing it poorly for that long.
I have not met one customer has commented about ISA or has a clue what it is if asked about. I could have been telling everyone I was a abc certified arborist, would have been cheaper.
I have gotten many jobs because I have "expert tree service" on my truck and/or because I advertise I am an arborist. I stopped telling people I'm a certified arborist. Yes some tree guys have laughed at me for saying it.
I feel it is the organizations (ISA, TCIA) job, who are taking our money, to lead the cause to raise the bar for our profession, not the individual businesses where as the majority of them are in it straight up for the money. I feel like all ISA and TCIA does is fluff our massive treegos with stickers, patches and oh yea, papers. I do not see anything being done at our level, sad but true. Man I would love to see the budget of ISA, they have a lot of members, where does all the money go?
I'll step up to anything in our industry that could raise the bar for us as a whole...as for now I have yet to see the proof in anyone's pudding. Sorry, somebody enlighten me, please.
Tree work is a business, most demand is for cheap work and cheap workers. Customers dictate what the industry sells. Customers need to be educated. Who has time for that? I try, some times it works and makes me feel good, but most times I just have to be the low bidder.
In the last 4 years, only one customer, for a church wanted an "certified arborist". I made $425. The people at the church did not care about proof, nor did they have any clue what ISA was.
I have 4 year degree in environmental science that helped me pass the ISA exam. Personally, I thought the exam was easy.
I also felt the ISA exam avoids some industry pertinent issues, like how to actually do tree work. I understand they could possibly incur liability issues if they approached some of these missing topics in depth. Anyways...that's all another discussion.
As a business owner and knowing what the ISA exam is about, I could care less about it at this point in time. If you show me you are safe, efficient, professional and can recognize what quality is in in our profession.... you're in. Yea experience clearly does not mean quality or qualified as many tree guys around here prove. Dudes bragging about 35 years experience and the tragedy is they've been doing it poorly for that long.
I have not met one customer has commented about ISA or has a clue what it is if asked about. I could have been telling everyone I was a abc certified arborist, would have been cheaper.
I have gotten many jobs because I have "expert tree service" on my truck and/or because I advertise I am an arborist. I stopped telling people I'm a certified arborist. Yes some tree guys have laughed at me for saying it.
I feel it is the organizations (ISA, TCIA) job, who are taking our money, to lead the cause to raise the bar for our profession, not the individual businesses where as the majority of them are in it straight up for the money. I feel like all ISA and TCIA does is fluff our massive treegos with stickers, patches and oh yea, papers. I do not see anything being done at our level, sad but true. Man I would love to see the budget of ISA, they have a lot of members, where does all the money go?
I'll step up to anything in our industry that could raise the bar for us as a whole...as for now I have yet to see the proof in anyone's pudding. Sorry, somebody enlighten me, please.
[ QUOTE ]
I came in this industry motivated. Pumped up on the idea, working any where I want. Trees are every place you go right? Then why get the credentials threw the organizations? I have every credential threw the T.C.I.A, I.S.A, I.A.A. I have worked for companies little and big. The Idea I got was, You work hard, study and obtain knowledge and the paper work that shows your in the mix of things in are industry. Then tell me why we can't negotiate? why they rather have a employee who comes into work and builds nothing to show for his craft? Is it because, they are cheap and give less conflict. There seasonal or they are less to make a claim when they get hurt. Many don't get involved in the industry because they don't have any group policing are credentials. I get it cost money. But, as a dieing breed of worker, I have to say, This industry needs to show that are credentials mean something. That hard work pays off and proving your involvement and wearing your heart on your sleeve for what you love should mean something. If you have a certified climber wanting the job who is worthy and checks out, compared to a guy who is saying I have done this for ten years and I know such and such, also he is asking for less pay. It entitles him to the job? I feel strong about giving the credit to the proven man who has made a claim where he stands. This Industry has lost it's face and heart for who touches this nations trees. I feel strong we need to have credited men and women touching these trees. Companies who are playing the race and pay game, well karma is a mofo. And the Industry should do something about this. Or are organizations and nation will lose more than gain in all aspects.
[/ QUOTE ]
this post screams to me a lack of talent hidden behind all the certs a man can buy....
can you actually physically perform the the task at hand?
do you have the ability to coexist with your coworkers or are you a mental midget?
I came in this industry motivated. Pumped up on the idea, working any where I want. Trees are every place you go right? Then why get the credentials threw the organizations? I have every credential threw the T.C.I.A, I.S.A, I.A.A. I have worked for companies little and big. The Idea I got was, You work hard, study and obtain knowledge and the paper work that shows your in the mix of things in are industry. Then tell me why we can't negotiate? why they rather have a employee who comes into work and builds nothing to show for his craft? Is it because, they are cheap and give less conflict. There seasonal or they are less to make a claim when they get hurt. Many don't get involved in the industry because they don't have any group policing are credentials. I get it cost money. But, as a dieing breed of worker, I have to say, This industry needs to show that are credentials mean something. That hard work pays off and proving your involvement and wearing your heart on your sleeve for what you love should mean something. If you have a certified climber wanting the job who is worthy and checks out, compared to a guy who is saying I have done this for ten years and I know such and such, also he is asking for less pay. It entitles him to the job? I feel strong about giving the credit to the proven man who has made a claim where he stands. This Industry has lost it's face and heart for who touches this nations trees. I feel strong we need to have credited men and women touching these trees. Companies who are playing the race and pay game, well karma is a mofo. And the Industry should do something about this. Or are organizations and nation will lose more than gain in all aspects.
[/ QUOTE ]
this post screams to me a lack of talent hidden behind all the certs a man can buy....
can you actually physically perform the the task at hand?
do you have the ability to coexist with your coworkers or are you a mental midget?
Trees are long term. Most companies do not care about the long term. I say most, because that is what I see daily.
The paper is important, means as others have said, that you are progressing. Never stop keeping current. The industry is in its infancy and moving forward. As it matures, most certainly the paper will be a requirement. Unfortunately, most entities aren't willing to enforce ANYTHING at this time. Guess enough people haven't been killed or there has not been enough carnage of trees yet. I am of the mind that tree companies kill more trees yearly than any single pest (unsupportable of course).
This I feel pretty strongly about. Paper only means that you possessed enough knowledge to pass a test. Doesn't mean that you practice it that way. Think of all the people that passed the drivers test. How many are really good drivers? I don't know first hand anything about you, but I know plenty of card carrying arborists that I would let nowhere near MY trees. Half unrelated - I see lax safety with almost every tree crew I see - logos abounding. The undertone - paper doesn't mean more money automatically unless you have that arrangement prior to attaining the cert.
I hear an undertone though that can be disturbing for an employer. Less conflict? Meaning you know everything and won't accept another method? When I was an employee, this never worked well for me :|.
You should definitely have a leg up going to work for the right company - you just have to find that company.
The paper is important, means as others have said, that you are progressing. Never stop keeping current. The industry is in its infancy and moving forward. As it matures, most certainly the paper will be a requirement. Unfortunately, most entities aren't willing to enforce ANYTHING at this time. Guess enough people haven't been killed or there has not been enough carnage of trees yet. I am of the mind that tree companies kill more trees yearly than any single pest (unsupportable of course).
This I feel pretty strongly about. Paper only means that you possessed enough knowledge to pass a test. Doesn't mean that you practice it that way. Think of all the people that passed the drivers test. How many are really good drivers? I don't know first hand anything about you, but I know plenty of card carrying arborists that I would let nowhere near MY trees. Half unrelated - I see lax safety with almost every tree crew I see - logos abounding. The undertone - paper doesn't mean more money automatically unless you have that arrangement prior to attaining the cert.
I hear an undertone though that can be disturbing for an employer. Less conflict? Meaning you know everything and won't accept another method? When I was an employee, this never worked well for me :|.
You should definitely have a leg up going to work for the right company - you just have to find that company.
treehumper
Carpal tunnel level member
- Location
- Ridgefield, NJ
There is this notion, whether you're waving a certification or a degree, that the paper will do the talking. They won't. We can't expect employers to figure us out. What have you delivered to a company in terms of the bottomline due to your certs? Can you explain what they have done for you to improve your skills and how it will benefit the company? Understand and be able to explain to an employer what you bring to the business, how it has benefited previous employers and how it can benefit them.
There is definitely a lack of awareness in the market of us as professionals. The industry associations do little to promote the professional. You see the Realtor's association, CMA, CGA, CPA advertising to the general public to increase understanding of the value of their designations. We need to pressure our organizations to start reaching the public in mass media.
There is definitely a lack of awareness in the market of us as professionals. The industry associations do little to promote the professional. You see the Realtor's association, CMA, CGA, CPA advertising to the general public to increase understanding of the value of their designations. We need to pressure our organizations to start reaching the public in mass media.
TreeCo
Carpal tunnel level member
This year marks my 25th years as a self employed arborist. I dropped my CA in 2009 after 18 years and don't miss it a bit.
My advice to those who are fed up with the credential and employers game..... is go self employed.
He wouldn't listen to the fact that I was a genius....we got all that we can use......
Jim Croce - Workin' At The Car Wash Blues (Live)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tLKhUnl_yhc
My advice to those who are fed up with the credential and employers game..... is go self employed.
He wouldn't listen to the fact that I was a genius....we got all that we can use......
Jim Croce - Workin' At The Car Wash Blues (Live)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tLKhUnl_yhc
arborcareman
New member
- Location
- ILLinois
""I feel it is the organizations (ISA, TCIA) job, who are taking our money, to lead the cause to raise the bar for our profession, not the individual businesses where as the majority of them are in it straight up for the money. I feel like all ISA and TCIA does is fluff our massive treegos with stickers, patches and oh yea, papers. I do not see anything being done at our level, sad but true. Man I would love to see the budget of ISA, they have a lot of members, where does all the money go?""
What would be nice is if they (the organizations)had some sort of task force to police how work is done and if it's being done the correct way.
I've been getting different certs etc since TCIA was the NAA. I do it because it means something to me and depending <font color="red"> </font> on the person(s) it can mean something to them too.
Anyway, all that to say, certs can be important and a selling tool to show that you care more than the rest of the "tree guys" out there.
My two cents....
What would be nice is if they (the organizations)had some sort of task force to police how work is done and if it's being done the correct way.
I've been getting different certs etc since TCIA was the NAA. I do it because it means something to me and depending <font color="red"> </font> on the person(s) it can mean something to them too.
Anyway, all that to say, certs can be important and a selling tool to show that you care more than the rest of the "tree guys" out there.
My two cents....
- Location
- Lexington, KY
I would love to see the ISA produce a nice radio commercial that explains why trees and hiring Certified Arborists is important. Several stations here will play a Public Service Announcement for free. ISA is a non-profit organization so this is something they can do. Make the ad available to all the chapters so it can be played locally in all markets across the country. Then I would feel that ISA is making an effort to reach the masses and make my credential more worthwhile.
- Location
- Rhode Island
That is an awesome idea! I am so sick of hearing used car salesmen on the radio, this would be a great change in our favor.
Certifications can be very helpful, but they are no guarantee that the work will be done well or correctly.
Here, here on the desire to see us do more to promote the profession. There seems to be an understanding that we need to do more. Have you seen the strategic goals for ISA? http://www.isa-arbor.com/about/missionAndHistory/strategicGoals.aspx
Three of the seven goals address public awareness and promoting the profession.
Public Awareness
ISA is recognized by the public as the worldwide network for science-based information on the benefits and care of trees.
Public Awareness
The public recognizes the value of trees, the need for proper tree care, and the benefits of trees to the environment.
Promoting the Profession
Arborists are recognized as qualified, competent, and safe tree care professionals who are sought out the by the public, government organizations, and other professions.
It is time for a coordinated, comprehensive, effective markeing plan. This could include radio and video spots that are cooperative with the components (chapters). Think 'milk does a body good', 'beef its whats for dinner', and 'the incredible edible egg'.
We also need a sustainable funding mechanism. Who would participate in a voluntary funding program... 0.25% of every job sold? Any other ideas?
Paul
Here, here on the desire to see us do more to promote the profession. There seems to be an understanding that we need to do more. Have you seen the strategic goals for ISA? http://www.isa-arbor.com/about/missionAndHistory/strategicGoals.aspx
Three of the seven goals address public awareness and promoting the profession.
Public Awareness
ISA is recognized by the public as the worldwide network for science-based information on the benefits and care of trees.
Public Awareness
The public recognizes the value of trees, the need for proper tree care, and the benefits of trees to the environment.
Promoting the Profession
Arborists are recognized as qualified, competent, and safe tree care professionals who are sought out the by the public, government organizations, and other professions.
It is time for a coordinated, comprehensive, effective markeing plan. This could include radio and video spots that are cooperative with the components (chapters). Think 'milk does a body good', 'beef its whats for dinner', and 'the incredible edible egg'.
We also need a sustainable funding mechanism. Who would participate in a voluntary funding program... 0.25% of every job sold? Any other ideas?
Paul
easyphloem
Branched out member
- Location
- Louisville, KY
I stack paper with all my papers. Hundos upon hundos.
SZ
SZ
- Location
- Rhode Island
Until you get fined thousands for be-smudgery.
easyphloem
Branched out member
- Location
- Louisville, KY
Whatever, I do what I want!
SZ
SZ
- Location
- AZ
Sign ze papers old man...........I will not sign ze papers!
I have to agree with old dirty. Papers can mean knowledge. But to guys who have been doing it a while a piece of paper doesn't mean crap. I have been to college and got my certifications but while in college I spent two summers for a company working as an intern. I was a grunt and had all this nice new shiny climbing gear that I had just learned how to use not long before the first summer. I come from a farm type background and it was a matter of proving to the guys that I wasn't going to walk in and with my knowledge and paper and be their boss. I was a sponge and learned a lot from a veteran foreman and from foreman since. You show that you are willing to do what's necessary and work just as hard if not harder than anyone else you earn respect. You listen and learn and offer suggestions or offer knowledge about certain things at the right time. Put your ego and your certs aside and prove what you can do by doing.
- Location
- Sunshine State
[ QUOTE ]
Sign ze papers old man...........I will not sign ze papers!
[/ QUOTE ]
"And vy cannot you sign ze papers?"
"Because you have broken both of my hands."
"That movie's a bummer man. Let's watch that Indian movie."
Sign ze papers old man...........I will not sign ze papers!
[/ QUOTE ]
"And vy cannot you sign ze papers?"
"Because you have broken both of my hands."
"That movie's a bummer man. Let's watch that Indian movie."
- Location
- rhode island
[ QUOTE ]
Whatever, I do what I want!
SZ
[/ QUOTE ]
It's your hot body!!
Whatever, I do what I want!
SZ
[/ QUOTE ]
It's your hot body!!
