Fu*%face Von Clownstick

[Matias]

WTF are you talking about? Every post I've made here has reinforced my desire for fair elections and open/truthful media. My last post literally said if there is any shenanigans it would be exposed.

The question I have for you is how in the actual fuck you could ask this goofy question after what I've consistently written here? Have you actuality read what I wrote? Are you a BOT? Are you perhaps so upset that perhaps you believe this election was rigged, and that belief somehow clouds your reading comprehension?

If you are noting that I only mentioned liberal media sighting shenanigans, my point is that they were utterly uncurius about what is now documented as massive voting irregularities in the 2020 election. I'm guessing conservative media will be honest about this one, as we've seen them expose false conservative claims by Trump and others time and time again over the last 4 years.

And whether I favor liberal media or conservative media exposing voter fraud, I still clearly support exposing it. Which demonstrates that I explicitly care about THIS election being fair.

Do you think this election was rigged? I'm open to listen honestly. Please give me the same courtesy.

You said

If there was massive shenanigans in favor of Trump I hope the liberal media will work as hard as conservatives did to call it out.

Those words carry the strong implication that you don't care that the conservative won't media investigate it, which they won't because they liked this result, and they think this was a fair election.

It wasn't any more fair than last time, or the time before, or the time before, but not in the way you say it wasn't fair in 2020. The system is inherently not fair because of the electoral college, and the lack of representation given to anyone who doesn't pick one of the two main candidates. It's not fair that there is such a high financial burden to even get your name on the ballot. Its unfair how much money in general people are allowed to spend to get their message out and drown out the ideas of regular people who don't have the means. It was unfair the way the DNC fucked over Bernie in 2016. Neither party has your interests in mind, or mind. Your beef if with the billionaires that keep fucking all of us over and over, not with me, but it sounds like you don't get that and are just lashing out against me for calling out your hypocrisy. Your allegiance to a billionaire who was born with a silver spoon in his mouth and has made such stupid choices that he lost more money than he made, and is still richer than we will ever be is what I find upsetting. you are falling for their culture war, while they wage class warfare against you. Wake up brother. I am on your team.

And Trump probably lost in 2020 only because Covid came at the start of the year, and people were so scared, they just wanted a little bit of the status quo, which was just a different flavor of getting fucked by the rich, with a little extra lipservice being paid to them

 

[rico]

2020? You can interpret what I quoted about 2020 above however you want.

I think all the fallout from 2020 greatly likely curtailed some of the shenanigans this year. In fact, there are some shenanigans that were quickly caught this year.

Things have changed. It's more difficult to cheat. But that's just my opinion. If there was massive shenanigans in favor of Trump I hope the liberal media will work as hard as conservatives did to call it out.

After 62 court cases and team Trump being unable to provide any evidence of widespread voter fraud you would think the big lie concerning the 2020 election would be put to rest?

 

[JontreeHI]

Governments should not be given any more punitive power through mandates, and the proverbial stick, than they already have. In fact, they should have less of that power than they currently do. History has demonstrated over and over again, that more
Power given to governing bodies, no matter how small that power may seem, has been abused and used to secure more power over people. Even if the penalty for not following the mandate is a “greater good” penalty, like you’ve suggested matias. Also do the math on how many work weeks would need to be community service to fulfill your 2000 hour suggestion, and explain to me how that wouldn’t put people in financial hardship.

 

[Matias]

Governments should not be given any more punitive power through mandates, and the proverbial stick, than they already have. In fact, they should have less of that power than they currently do. History has demonstrated over and over again, that more
Power given to governing bodies, no matter how small that power may seem, has been abused and used to secure more power over people. Even if the penalty for not following the mandate is a “greater good” penalty, like you’ve suggested matias. Also do the math on how many work weeks would need to be community service to fulfill your 2000 hour suggestion, and explain to me how that wouldn’t put people in financial hardship.

yea, for sure, that number means that you spend a lot of your off work hours doing community service. 500 hours per year means only 2 hours a day x 5 days x 50 weeks a year. It really isn't that unreasonable, especially if you are so vehemently against voting. Maybe if we had everyone voting, we could vote to reduce government authority in the places where they are over reaching, but when people are so fucking apathetic, it makes it so much more difficult for those of us who care to get the votes needed to not just get proposals onto the ballot, but actually get them passed. So many people are so apathetic, that they don't even bother to learn what measures are on the ballot, especially in non-presidential election cycles, even when they might be not voting on things they actually would be happy to see changed, if only they knew we had finally gotten that on a ballot.

The Aussies have had an entire century to repeal mandatory voting. Why haven't they? Like, I wholly agree that as little government as necessary is the ideal, we do have to contend with the shittiness that many humans bring to the table. You like having your private property rights, yes? You like knowing that murderers and rapists can't rape and murder with impunity, right? So what is your worry when it comes specifically to this one mandate, not any other?

 

[Mike Islander]

You said

Those words carry the strong implication that you don't care that the conservative won't media investigate it, which they won't because they liked this result, and they think this was a fair election.

It wasn't any more fair than last time, or the time before, or the time before, but not in the way you say it wasn't fair in 2020. The system is inherently not fair because of the electoral college, and the lack of representation given to anyone who doesn't pick one of the two main candidates. It's not fair that there is such a high financial burden to even get your name on the ballot. Its unfair how much money in general people are allowed to spend to get their message out and drown out the ideas of regular people who don't have the means. It was unfair the way the DNC fucked over Bernie in 2016. Neither party has your interests in mind, or mind. Your beef if with the billionaires that keep fucking all of us over and over, not with me, but it sounds like you don't get that and are just lashing out against me for calling out your hypocrisy. Your allegiance to a billionaire who was born with a silver spoon in his mouth and has made such stupid choices that he lost more money than he made, and is still richer than we will ever be is what I find upsetting. you are falling for their culture war, while they wage class warfare against you. Wake up brother. I am on your team.

And Trump probably lost in 2020 only because Covid came at the start of the year, and people were so scared, they just wanted a little bit of the status quo, which was just a different flavor of getting fucked by the rich, with a little extra lipservice being paid to them

You have described YOUR beef. My beef is that however the legal voting system is defined, that illegal fuckery and voter fraud is not allowed. Your having a conversation with yourself, not me. If you were confused by my first post, somehow you conveniently ignored my explicit clarification that I just wrote in response to when you got it wrong the first time. And despite literally spelling it out in print, you appear to have zero comprehension of my position.

Maybe drink an extra cup of coffee if you want to have a conversation with me, because I can explain it to you, but I can't understand it for you. And I don't like repeating myself for people who are incapable of having a rational conversation.

 

[JontreeHI]

yea, for sure, that number means that you spend a lot of your off work hours doing community service. 500 hours per year means only 2 hours a day x 5 days x 50 weeks a year. It really isn't that unreasonable, especially if you are so vehemently against voting. Maybe if we had everyone voting, we could vote to reduce government authority in the places where they are over reaching, but when people are so fucking apathetic, it makes it so much more difficult for those of us who care to get the votes needed to not just get proposals onto the ballot, but actually get them passed. So many people are so apathetic, that they don't even bother to learn what measures are on the ballot, especially in non-presidential election cycles, even when they might be not voting on things they actually would be happy to see changed, if only they knew we had finally gotten that on a ballot.

The Aussies have had an entire century to repeal mandatory voting. Why haven't they? Like, I wholly agree that as little government as necessary is the ideal, we do have to contend with the shittiness that many humans bring to the table. You like having your private property rights, yes? You like knowing that murderers and rapists can't rape and murder with impunity, right? So what is your worry when it comes specifically to this one mandate, not any other?

This isn’t the only mandate I’m opposed to. It’s the one you proposed

 

[Matias]

This isn’t the only mandate I’m opposed to. It’s the one you proposed

and I agree with you that some mandates are excessive under some circumstances, but what is the problem you see with the specific one I have asked about?

 

[JontreeHI]

and I agree with you that some mandates are excessive under some circumstances, but what is the problem you see with the specific one I have asked about?

Something about “participate in our democracy or else” doesn’t sit well with me. In fact that’s probably antithetical to the concept of democracy. That sounds like a citizen/govt relationship where the balance of power is already weighted heavily towards govt. is that the case in Australia?

 

[Burrapeg]

. . . that illegal fuckery and voter fraud is not allowed. . .

Another thing related to this, that perhaps should not be allowed, is for a sour-grapes, egotistical loser to invent illegal fuckery where none exists, as an excuse to explain his loss, and then use it as a basis to instigate what we saw in the shameful attack on our capital. Trump's very first talk of election fraud came many months before the 2020 election and coincided exactly with the dropping poll numbers that first told him he had a chance of losing. His massively inflated and fragile ego simply could not handle that. In contrast to the way Trump handled losing, we just saw a peaceful transfer of power from a far better group of people. Now we will get the Dept. of Education abolished if he lives up to his promises, in case we are not already dumb and pliable enough. We will get the likes of RFK Jr. in charge of health, etc. We will see Ukraine thrown under the bus as Trump kisses Putin's arse, same with Gaza and the Palestinians as he chums with Bibi and probably gives us back the Muslim Ban. Even our right to peacefully protest any of the above is now in serious doubt. Remember his own people trying to talk him back from his solution of using the military domestically and simply shooting protestors? Those same relatively level-headed people will not be there this time. This time he is likely to have 'generals like Hitler had' (Trump's own words). And this time he even has immunity for any of this he wants to implement. We have shat in our nest big time, and an awful lot of his dipshite supporters will live to regret it same as the rest of us, but too late unfortunately.

 

[Boomslang]

Something about “participate in our democracy or else” doesn’t sit well with me. In fact that’s probably antithetical to the concept of democracy. That sounds like a citizen/govt relationship where the balance of power is already weighted heavily towards govt. is that the case in Australia?

Do you believe the people hold any power in our current situation?

 

[Matias]

Something about “participate in our democracy or else” doesn’t sit well with me. In fact that’s probably antithetical to the concept of democracy. That sounds like a citizen/govt relationship where the balance of power is already weighted heavily towards govt. is that the case in Australia?

something about nearly half of the voting aged people in this country not participating doesn't sit right with me, so who's feelings are more valid? what is you material case against participating? Let me ask you point blank, did you vote?

 

[JontreeHI]

Do you believe the people hold any power in our current situation?

Good question, I’m honestly not so sure we do, or at least not very much. I’d love to be proven wrong in that however.

 

[Matias]

Good question, I’m honestly not so sure we do, or at least not very much. I’d love to be proven wrong in that however.

We outnumber by orders of magnitude. If we could set aside the culture war bullshit and unify under the flag of the working class, we would have them by the short and curlies. A general strike would bring the rich and powerful (one and the same) to their fucking knees.

 

[JontreeHI]

something about nearly half of the voting aged people in this country not participating doesn't sit right with me, so who's feelings are more valid? what is you material case against participating? Let me ask you point blank, did you vote?

I voted. I haven’t always voted and may not again in the future. Voting can be described as a “privilege/right”, an “obligation” a “responsibility”, certainly ought not to be something we are required to do under penalty of law. Do you see the fundamental difference?
Who’s feelings matter more? Mine, to me. And likely yours, to you. Either way, thinking of the government as a tool to get other people to do what you want them to do isn’t right.

We outnumber by orders of magnitude. If we could set aside the culture war bullshit and unify under the flag of the working class, we would have them by the short and curlies. A general strike would bring the rich and powerful (one and the same) to their fucking knees.

I agree of course. But trying to make laws to force people to vote is the complete opposite of this

 

[Matias]

I voted. I haven’t always voted and may not again in the future. Voting can be described as a “privilege/right”, an “obligation” a “responsibility”, certainly ought not to be something we are required to do under penalty of law. Do you see the fundamental difference?
Who’s feelings matter more? Mine, to me. And likely yours, to you. Either way, thinking of the government as a tool to get other people to do what you want them to do isn’t right.

I agree of course. But trying to make laws to force people to vote is the complete opposite of this

I like a lot of what you said there, and it adds a lot of nuance to the conversation. The way I see it, it's about the government being a tool to keep people from hurting others. by not fulfilling your responsibility, you hand over more power to the already powerful. please don't give up on the process. In fact, I beg you to double down on your efforts. I promise you that all of us here are in fact on the same team, and we need to work together, and work harder to bring forth the real, meaningful changes that I think will let us leave this world in a better state than it was when we got here.

 

[Boomslang]

Good question, I’m honestly not so sure we do, or at least not very much. I’d love to be proven wrong in that however.

This is just my opinion, but I believe what the populace at large currently holds is the illusion of power. We've been given just enough to keep us complacent, docile, and obedient, but not enough to hold any actual power. That power belongs to the hands of a fraction of a percentage of the population. The system has been purposely designed to discourage large groups of citizens from participating and has created a cultural divide that is downright terrifying.

I identify as a just left of center liberal. There are conservative policies I agree with, and there are liberal policies I dislike. However, in the current political climate you are labelled as an extremist no matter which side of the political spectrum you fall. Snowflake libtard or right-wing nutjob. It's not a healthy way to build a society and the issue runs much, much deeper than whomever is currently in power. So anyone thinking Trump's victory will solve the country's woes are in for an awakening.

 

[Boomslang]

I agree of course. But trying to make laws to force people to vote is the complete opposite of this

Laws to force women to carry a fetus to term are ok though?
Or laws condoning murder?
What about laws that promote the pursuit of wealth over the health and well-being of humanity?
There are even laws which revoke your right to vote.

What I'm proposing is not a show of force. Nobody is going to come drag your ass out of bed and haul you off to the voting booth. It's a nudge to encourage people to participate. If you choose not to participate then you can pay $50 to entertain the people who do care enough to exercise their civic duty.

 

[JontreeHI]

his is just my opinion, but I believe what the populace at large currently holds is the illusion of power. We've been given just enough to keep us complacent, docile, and obedient, but not enough to hold any actual power. That power belongs to the hands of a fraction of a percentage of the population. The system has been purposely designed to discourage large groups of citizens from participating and has created a cultural divide that is downright terrifying.

The biggest part of me agrees with this, “selected not elected” and so on. Sam longhorn Clemens said something to the effect “if voting mattered they wouldn’t let you do it.” And that’s always rang true to me. But I don’t always want to be a cynic. As I grow and learn and experience more I try to challenge my personal beliefs and see if they still hold water, and they don’t always.
And I also agree that the level of division that exists in our country is frightening, maybe unbridgeable, this thread as an ironic example of that.
You lose me a little on your second post. I didn’t say anything of those things you listed are ok. Also, what laws condone murder? I’m trying to get what you’re saying there but I can’t figure it out.
In your example, how would someone be handled who refused mandated voting, and also refused the 50$ fine? The next step is either over reach (we’re there already in my opinion), or for the govt to give up because the law isnt enforceable, and so then it’s irrelevant, and why did we waste time and money on it in the first place?
Participation is either willful, or coerced. I’m not sure if there’s any grey area there but there could be.

 

[JontreeHI]

I like a lot of what you said there, and it adds a lot of nuance to the conversation. The way I see it, it's about the government being a tool to keep people from hurting others. by not fulfilling your responsibility, you hand over more power to the already powerful. please don't give up on the process. In fact, I beg you to double down on your efforts. I promise you that all of us here are in fact on the same team, and we need to work together, and work harder to bring forth the real, meaningful changes that I think will let us leave this world in a better state than it was when we got here.

You’re a thoughtful guy and it seems like your desire for collectivism is genuine. I don’t know what has to change to bridge the current gaps of course, but we should probably turn off our televisions.

 

[brydan]

What I'm proposing is not a show of force. Nobody is going to come drag your ass out of bed and haul you off to the voting booth. It's a nudge to encourage people to participate. If you choose not to participate then you can pay $50 to entertain the people who do care enough to exercise their civic duty.

All gov't regulations are a show of force. Of course, some regulations are necessary for a functioning society but just because it makes you feel warm and fuzzy doesn't negate the fact that it's still a show of force. Don't believe me? Refuse to pay the fine and see what happens. Somebody earlier likened it to a parking ticket. Haha yeah it's just a parking ticket. Refuse to pay parking tickets for a while and it ends up with a warrant for your arrest.

People shouldn't be cavalier about using gov't force to exercise their will over the people. Freedom is messy. People aren't always going to behave the way you want them to but I prefer the animating contest of freedom to the tranquility of servitude.