Finishing a back cut with a hand saw?

My hand saw only comes out to finish if I overestimate on hinge wood and I can't push it over. The norm is cut it with the chainsaw just enough so you can make it fall, if you have to touch the piece at all.
If you're really good, you cut enough to make it go, but have enough time to put your saw away first and get your hands free to push, grab, spin, etc.:cool:
 
Just back from the GSTC where John Ball did his presentation on accidents in the industry. He is the guru on the topic of the many ways we kill and maim ourselves. He's also a working arborist. That is one of his recommendations, use a handsaw to finish. This is based on his experience and what the incidents suggest.
But let's look at some of the rationale for not using a handsaw:
My handsaw is curved only 13", which isn't great for a precision back cut of size.
Like chainsaws there are more than one style. a straight blade with more aggressive tooth count (like a full skip chain) would be a good purchase for carrying on a removal.
I feel it would add to fatigue having to constantly finish my cuts with a handsaw.
The fatigue of constantly holding up the weight of a chainsaw and the vibrations are the alternative. It would be a matter of strength and endurance training much alike to everything else we do.
I could cut myself just as easily with a 14 inch silk with 1/4 inch teeth if I am rocked by pieces being rigged.
No, you can't. A chainsaw has two cutting surfaces and a handsaw has one. I haven't heard of handsaw kickback. As for the degree of injury, I've nailed myself with my handsaw and it took a few butterfly bandages to close it up. The average chainsaw injury results in 110 stitches. Bit more to close that up I'd say. I use my incident since I couldn't find any stats on handsaw injuries, rather telling…. What I did find was that hand tool injuries are a matter of the wrong tool for the job or the right tool used improperly. Either way, aren't we training ourselves to use the right tool for the job in the right way?

What if I need to cut my metal core flip lanyard due to structrual failure, or the need to cut the rope is groundie is about to drag the rope into the
chipper.
The video dispels the wire core issue. Although the concern for structural failure would dictate a different work position set up even to the point of not being in the tree. The rope being drag into a chipper scenario is one where the bigger problem isn't your ability to cut through the rope in the nick of time! Maybe it is a Hollywood thing, the hero struggling to cut the rope before the untimely death of some hapless victim or even themselves! But there's a video that shows the handsaw blows through a taught line instantly.
I'm not sure it is a necessary precaution.
Then chalk it up to erring on the side of caution.

For a larger company, incidents cost them in ways that you may not even imagine. If you have one incident in a 30 yr career for the big players it's equivalent to over a 100 in a single year. If they self insure then they are dealing with the average cost of a chainsaw accident in the $12,000 range as of 2000 and the loss time costs. It has opportunity costs where they can't even bid on certain jobs if they have poor accident records and record keeping.

There's a couple of ways you can look at this. Do an analysis of the costs. Does it actually cost more for him to do it this way? Does it save you any money it terms of equipment and fuel consumption? Does it bring a culture of safety to your company? If it were some other new technique, e.g., SRT, would you be reluctant to adopt it too?
 
True, True True...All very good and eye opening perspectives. Treehumper, thank you for responding directly to my questions. I t is great information and it allowed me to look at the finishing the back cut with a handsaw differently. Especially when you look at it from a cost perspective. ( slow and steady wins the race).

Just a couple of more questions and playing devil's advocate because these were questions posed to me. I love the feed back.

How are these accidents happening.

How is kickback occurring during your back cut if done correctly? I can see where in certain species or to much tension on a tagline could cause the tree to snap expectantly?



Is John Ball suggesting that for a tree that is 2 times the length or more of your handsaw, and where a bore cut in not probable , you should still use a handsaw to finish the back cut . Is one suppose to finish the back cut on one side, re-position, and finish on the other?

I am assuming these accidents are occurring with chainsaw throttled and not with handbrake on or saw turned off. If the chainsaw is off or brake on, wouldn't an injury sustained be equivalent to a handsaw.

As for cutting the flip line, when I was a rookie there was a split second where I almost had to do it, if I had a hand saw in hand it wouldn't have helped. Having said that, lessoned learned and would take proper precaution not to be in that situation again.

As for the line being dragged into the chipper. It was a real scenario where the climber signals and whistle could not be heard. He watched the groundmen drag the line into the chipper and had enough time to reach below him and cut the climbing line. Since then they have implemented using headsets.
 
I like the hand saw for when your anticipating a ride. Saw's off and clipped on the saddle. But you need just a bit more to hinge it over.

That's the only time I ever finish a cut with a handsaw. Last thing I want is my saw to wrap around me and the tree if the groundie doesn't let it run.

I've also used a pole saw in sketchy situations or storm damage just to make sure I'm out of the way in case things go south.

But like others have said, it takes practice to get good at hinging with your tree saw properly and also handling it properly as your rigging takes place.


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I understand the bottom line and I know that common sense and skill level are a couple of things that the "big players" don't have complete control over. That's not to say that some great, talented smart guys don't work for them, because I've seen some in action. However, to say that every back cut must be finished with a handsaw is penalizing and shortening the careers of those talented smart guys that have thousands more back cuts under their belt than the managers that make such rules and those talented smart guys that are turning out the majority of the work are likely to move on and leave you with the ones that need to make every cut with a handsaw. I'm all for sensible safe work practices but the mentality that we'll punish everyone because of one man's stupidity is rampant in business and society as a whole.
 
Agreed with the idea of the pencil pushing lawmakers passing regulations. I know some have experience in the laws and regs they make but I for one, would like to see all experienced in which they are making rules of. It's easy for the inexperienced to say this is how things should be done.
 
My suggestion is we all quit tree work and get a job as QA for a pillow manufacturing company. However they do require a neck brace and helmet due to repetitive injuries. I'm all for safety but the handsaw backcut thing Dr Ball suggests is unrealistic. No matter what the rationale is, its unrealistic and IMHO overkill. There are other ways to combat the issue. How about we train climbers instead of just letting any shmo get into a tree and start cutting. This is almost as bad as the one hand 2 hand argument.
 
My suggestion is we all quit tree work and get a job as QA for a pillow manufacturing company. However they do require a neck brace and helmet due to repetitive injuries. I'm all for safety but the handsaw backcut thing Dr Ball suggests is unrealistic. No matter what the rationale is, its unrealistic and IMHO overkill. There are other ways to combat the issue. How about we train climbers instead of just letting any shmo get into a tree and start cutting. This is almost as bad as the one hand 2 hand argument.

Almost?
 
Low cutting speed can be a hazard. When spearing down upright limbs and tops I want the butt to slide off at just the right moment, sometimes cutting slow at first and then finishing quickly when the tip has bent over just enough. I also like a quick back (top) cut when jump cutting horizontal limbs. And, generally, after cutting any notch, I don't like a lot of intermission time for gusty winds to have their way.
 
If it were some other new technique, e.g., SRT, would you be reluctant to adopt it too?

Not if it involved high explosives. I'd like to be able to purchase detcord, shaped charges, and plastic explosives to blow out tops. I'd insert the charge near the holding strap of a bore cut, descend, and remotely detonate . Dr. Ball should be researching this.
 
I will finish my back cut with a handsaw if my climbing line, lanyard, or any part of my body is near the back cut. Some awkward positions are clearly more safe this way, since the back of most handsaws do not cut. No need to get anyone's panties in a wad over this technique.
 
I think we all do that sometimes. I do when I think the situation calls for it. I also one hand a chainsaw when I think the situation calls for it. However those who tell me I should never one hand a chainsaw and should always finish the back cut with a handsaw make my eyebrows furrow. Always and never are strong words that have a permanence best left unspoken except to oneself about oneself.
 
Sometimes if I need to push with one hand and cut with the other I'll use the handsaw to finish, I use a straight blade so no worries about uneven hing or whatever. I never got super comfortable with pushing above a piece I was cutting with a motor saw. I do it sometimes but not like some old school dudes I've seen who are way more comfortable doing that than I. Also if I'm standing in super skinny wood I'll use the handsaw, after a certain diameter I have a real hard time balancing in spikes..... and every once in awhile, when I'm really tired, I sit down to pee.:sorprendido3:
 
Not if it involved high explosives. I'd like to be able to purchase detcord, shaped charges, and plastic explosives to blow out tops. I'd insert the charge near the holding strap of a bore cut, descend, and remotely detonate . Dr. Ball should be researching this.
Like this?
 
How about we train climbers instead of just letting any shmo get into a tree and start cutting.
Yes, but that's the dilemma isn't it. We don't have tons of people rushing to get into the trade and still have work to be done. My biggest complaint of this and many other industries is the unwillingness to implement training and development programs that recruit at the entry level.
 

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