Fines for climbing dead ash trees

It is all about HOW you climb it and how you rig it. If you change the status quo as little as poss and even improve on eliminating the failure tendencies...remove weight strategically...you will get to be almost 67 and still doing them almost daily like me.

If you do dumb stuff...you die.
 
It's called risk management. With programs involving governments agencies or large companies, their lawyers and insurers will have a look at the risk exposure and how to be seen to be mitigating it. (remember, in litigation, mitigation is key). We know that money talks, BS walks. So, fines or the potential loss of money is a motivator for those who would try to do things with the minimum amount of expense. Humans are cheap compared to machines.....

Unless the province is handling the EAB crisis then it'll be on the municipality to decide what it's policies will be.
 
There's good money in ash, but they truly are fucking awful after a while. I miss the days of pruning sugars and silvers, and removing manies and elms.

Ahhhhhh those were the days...
 

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Good luck trying to police that. Lots of "tree guys" in our area work evenings and weekends when MOL is at home relaxing. The only way that could work is if the MOL harassed us as much as the MTO does! Just like that Ottawa news clip said "its like the wild wild west!"
 
I know every thing is with in reason but does anyone have a company policy or say a chart like hazardous tree chart for dead ash? That say pul test this much, don't climb after a certain point, etc so on?

We have a lot of new people starting with us straight out of school this spring very green so anything to help wrap brains around this problem is worth a try.
 
A responsible tree company would have guidelines in place for what is an acceptable tree to climb. No need to reinvent policies for a specific species.
 
Agreed, it's that "responsible" part that seems to get lost in the mix. Alas, if all companies or even the majority of companies were responsible then there wouldn't be the need to regulate.
 
I know every thing is with in reason but does anyone have a company policy or say a chart like hazardous tree chart for dead ash? That say pul test this much, don't climb after a certain point, etc so on?

We have a lot of new people starting with us straight out of school this spring very green so anything to help wrap brains around this problem is worth a try.

By "new people" do you mean tree workers or sales people? I did a job about 4 years ago, it was a dead ash bean pole about 90' to the tips. It was in a back yard with tough access. I get there to quote it and I get looking at the tree and I see spur marks in it. I look up a little higher and I can see someone had cut some suckers off. I looked around a little more and I see a throw ball hanging in a near by Ironwood tree with about 2' of broken line on it. I asked the home owner what was going on and who tried to climb that tree?! He says "well here is what happened, I had quote from another tree company and gave them the job, the removal crew showed up and attempted to climb the tree and one guy got about 20' up and was worried the tree was gonna fail on him. He came down and said he was gonna kill the quote guy. They packed up and left. They walked from the job". The tree was toast and not climbable. I gave him a price with a lift rental as it would be very tight getting the bucket in the back yard. I got the job. We dug out and moved a little blue spruce to allow us to get the lift in, loaded the lawn with alturna mats and plywood and got the job done. I am owner/operator and run a 5 man crew. I quote the jobs and I am on the jobs. If I wouldn't climb a tree personally, I don't bid it and think I will make one of my guys do it. If your sales guys aren't experienced tree men they really should have a knowledge about how dead is too dead and what to look for etc. They may think its a straight forward climbing job but may require a bucket, spider lift, crane etc. Things you can teach new guys to watch for are: no leaves left at all, branch tips all crumbled away, bark falling off, cracks in the stem, cavities, lack of pedestal flare, mushrooms near base, on the trunk, over root system etc. Binoculars can be handy for quotes. We have had EAB in our area for about 10 years now. Lots of trees stills standing and they are all screwed. Crispy! As a company we don't climb dead ash in our area any more. Bucket, spider lift, crane or flop it if it can be done. If others outfits want to take the risk that is their deal. EAB has been all over the newspapers and the news for a long time around here, its old news! The trees didn't die last week and I am tired of people leaving them until they are ready to fall over......some have!! I LOVE raking dead ash!!:endesacuerdo:
 
By "new people" do you mean tree workers or sales people? I did a job about 4 years ago, it was a dead ash bean pole about 90' to the tips. It was in a back yard with tough access. I get there to quote it and I get looking at the tree and I see spur marks in it. I look up a little higher and I can see someone had cut some suckers off. I looked around a little more and I see a throw ball hanging in a near by Ironwood tree with about 2' of broken line on it. I asked the home owner what was going on and who tried to climb that tree?! He says "well here is what happened, I had quote from another tree company and gave them the job, the removal crew showed up and attempted to climb the tree and one guy got about 20' up and was worried the tree was gonna fail on him. He came down and said he was gonna kill the quote guy. They packed up and left. They walked from the job". The tree was toast and not climbable. I gave him a price with a lift rental as it would be very tight getting the bucket in the back yard. I got the job. We dug out and moved a little blue spruce to allow us to get the lift in, loaded the lawn with alturna mats and plywood and got the job done. I am owner/operator and run a 5 man crew. I quote the jobs and I am on the jobs. If I wouldn't climb a tree personally, I don't bid it and think I will make one of my guys do it. If your sales guys aren't experienced tree men they really should have a knowledge about how dead is too dead and what to look for etc. They may think its a straight forward climbing job but may require a bucket, spider lift, crane etc. Things you can teach new guys to watch for are: no leaves left at all, branch tips all crumbled away, bark falling off, cracks in the stem, cavities, lack of pedestal flare, mushrooms near base, on the trunk, over root system etc. Binoculars can be handy for quotes. We have had EAB in our area for about 10 years now. Lots of trees stills standing and they are all screwed. Crispy! As a company we don't climb dead ash in our area any more. Bucket, spider lift, crane or flop it if it can be done. If others outfits want to take the risk that is their deal. EAB has been all over the newspapers and the news for a long time around here, its old news! The trees didn't die last week and I am tired of people leaving them until they are ready to fall over......some have!! I LOVE raking dead ash!!:endesacuerdo:
New guys for on crew climbing.
We do have general standards and policies in place. However a dead elm, poplar, eab ash, etc are very different.
We've been seeing alot of big ash have there roots rot off so 0 stability and they fall over compared to elm which tend to crumble from the tips inward, etc so on.
I just feel I can't (haven't) got enough information on dead/ dying ash ie. Still sprouts ok to climb.
Pull test failure rate
Do the roots match the crowns or what's happening down there

How did you come to say no more climbing? How'd you justify/reason that?

Not knocking any choices made just looking for more answers each day
 
Get yourself a resistograph and start drilling root crowns and roots, or less expensive get a increment borer and a fractometer.
 
New guys for on crew climbing.
We do have general standards and policies in place. However a dead elm, poplar, eab ash, etc are very different.
We've been seeing alot of big ash have there roots rot off so 0 stability and they fall over compared to elm which tend to crumble from the tips inward, etc so on.
I just feel I can't (haven't) got enough information on dead/ dying ash ie. Still sprouts ok to climb.
Pull test failure rate
Do the roots match the crowns or what's happening down there

How did you come to say no more climbing? How'd you justify/reason that?

Not knocking any choices made just looking for more answers each day

You might want to contact a city or municipality that has a no climbing policy in effect and pick their brains on it. My reason for saying no more climbing dead ash is that they have been standing dead for too long in my area. I have seen basal rot and the whole tree fell over, we have pulled over whole trees with the skid steer without even notching them because of root rot. And trees that look fine near the base are not fine up top once we get up there. You let a top sail to the ground and it explodes and its like styrofoam! The longer they stand the worse they get. As mentioned above its old news and people choose to wait and wait because they think it will be cheaper to take down!! WRONG!! If the job can't be done safely without putting myself or my crew at risk i.e. they won't pay extra for lift or crane because I can't get the bucket in, I walk away. We all need to go home in one piece to our families at the end of the day. Just my 2 cents...
 
The longer they stand the worse they get.

A few years back, the wife and I were re-landscaping parts of a property we own about 7 miles from where we live. There's an old, dying ash tree I keep threatening to remove, but have left standing the last five years because it is habitat for so many critters. Anyway, while we were planting shrubs and bushes, I planted a Yew or an Arborvitae (don't remember which) fairly close to this ash tree... while digging the hole, I hit a nest of carpenter ants living in a large (8" diameter or so) root from the ash tree, but since the root was down about a foot or so, and the shrub was so small, I planted it, anyway. Needless to say, this invasion of their space didn't set well with the ants. A few days later, the shrub was laying on its side. The damn ants had chewed its entire root ball off.

That ash tree has creeped me out, ever since then. I can't help but think that the damage the carpenter ants are doing to the visible parts of the tree are probably nothing compared to what they're doing to the root system. The small part of that root I could see, was riddled with their galleries. It appeared that the nest ran up this root, to the tree about ten feet away. I had never seen them do this before.

I'll still remove the tree this spring, as a few cuts from a bucket truck or lift and then felling it is all that's needed... but I certainly won't climb it. I was over there yesterday and I can't believe how rapidly the tree is going downhill. I seriously doubt if there will be more than a smattering of budding, this spring. Less than a third of it leafed out last year. This is not an EAB tree, either... we haven't been hit with it, yet.

I can easily see, from this tree and the many others around here in equally bad condition, how a policy to just not climb them could be justified. There's a point where the risk might just be too great to bother trying to assess them. Every branch that falls off my tree explodes on impact, as described by others. I don't expect it to yield much, if any, usable firewood.

I hate to advocate blanket policies or regulations that don't allow room for individual assessment, but I must admit that sometimes it's the easiest way to prevent Suicide by Stupidity. I removed an ash last summer that was probably 20% dead, I just stayed off the dead parts. I wonder what criteria would be valid for deciding just how dead is a dead ash tree?
 
Curious where you heard that Mike.
It's been mentioned already that bigger municipalities (Oakville for example) won't allow anyone to bid the work without some sort of aerial lift. It's also true they prefer only CAs to do their work.
I have it on good authority that Davey won't climb any ash tree that's been infected for more than 4-5 years in Southwestern Ontario.

They pretty much turn into styrofoam and fail at the base. That's pretty much all I know.
I think this would be fair grounds for some sort of governing body to be developed before people get killed. Way too many hacks in Southwestern Ontario, it's going to happen.


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Curious where you heard that Mike.
It's been mentioned already that bigger municipalities (Oakville for example) won't allow anyone to bid the work without some sort of aerial lift. It's also true they prefer only CAs to do their work.
I have it on good authority that Davey won't climb any ash tree that's been infected for more than 4-5 years in Southwestern Ontario.

They pretty much turn into styrofoam and fail at the base. That's pretty much all I know.
I think this would be fair grounds for some sort of governing body to be developed before people get killed. Way too many hacks in Southwestern Ontario, it's going to happen.


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk

I was talking to a guy that runs a company out of Bobcaygeon. Crazy Monkey. I forget his name. Heard it from him.. He said friends of his in the city told him that. Probably misinterprification. Or some suchness..
Boils down to climber beware.
 
Crazy monkey haha he's a bit crazy himself. I would take whatever he says with a grain of salt. I have worked on a contract for the city of missisauga and it was part of the contract that climbing any ash tree was prohibited. They will do whatever it takes to get the tree down without climbing. You have to understand that they are dealing with trees on publicly owned property not back yards. We did encounter multiple trees in cemeteries that we couldn't get a bucket to or fell that were put on a list for a spider lift or similar lift to remove.

I agree that when it comes to private work you have to trust your gut with ash trees and if you don't know then walk away! If your boss has half a brain they will support your call and work with you to find a safe way to deal with the tree.
 
Crazy monkey haha he's a bit crazy himself. I would take whatever he says with a grain of salt. I have worked on a contract for the city of missisauga and it was part of the contract that climbing any ash tree was prohibited. They will do whatever it takes to get the tree down without climbing. You have to understand that they are dealing with trees on publicly owned property not back yards. We did encounter multiple trees in cemeteries that we couldn't get a bucket to or fell that were put on a list for a spider lift or similar lift to remove.

I agree that when it comes to private work you have to trust your gut with ash trees and if you don't know then walk away! If your boss has half a brain they will support your call and work with you to find a safe way to deal with the tree.


'when it comes to private work you have to trust your gut with ash trees'
This sentence right here is exactly where my questions stem from.
I understand this point and can agree with it to a certain point but even with our guts the eab killed ash get worse over time and even right at ground zero who had eab first the dead trees change all the time and each one just a little bit different.

So even someone around for the start of ded wouldn't necessarily know much more than someone 30 years jr but still doing trees for the past 10 years cause eab is its own certain variable problem.

To sum this up with my point. I've been studying, climbing, cutting, etc for over 10 years now so I trust my gut some what but our company prides itself on being a starting place for new climbers coming out of good college programs to learn and cut there teeth under us. If you started climbing 6 months ago you're looking for a summer job in your field to 'cut your teeth' ( like an infant) you don't have a gut to follow. Back then for me my gut told me I was hungry and it was lunch time. What the hell did I know and we didn't have this scale of problem for me to walk into.

How do we follow our guts enough to explain and teach on the job to not ever let these kids end up in trouble just trying to work and do there job. What do you do besides 'follow your gut'?
 
Dead does not mean dangerous.
If you neglect to make proper tests and inspection from the ground and aerial you can be killed or kill someone.
Climbing dead trees for many yrs and only had to leave one for bucket work and a few for pull down

I climb alot of ash as well. Just wondering if you can list or explain what/how you test your dead ash? Anything I(we) could do to improve is good and we may be missing a step without knowing.

This goes for everyone. If anyone can explain there "ash testing protocol" for lack of a better term that would be a help. I know every tree is different so that isn't a helpful answer no matter how true or commonly given.

If tree testing knowledge is shared it could be beneficial.
I once had pull testing explained to me like this: Trees are weaker horizontally than vertically so basically if you set a rope 2/3rds the way up a tree and pull on it with 200 lbs(I'm 180+gear) at about a 30 degree angle(I know there's math to figure out it's likely more like 33.333 degrees but anyway) and it doesn't break than it passed the pull test and will hold you vertically.

So sharing testing methods obviously can't hurt.
What happens if I take a section of taking 400lbs of back weight then is it still safe?
How much is me + the force of pulling off a 20' top?
Blocking wood down, is it ok or like a loose tooth did it hold the first time your mom gave it a yank, but after some wiggling you got a dollar from the tooth fairy(cycles to failure for anyone not childish) root and all.

These are the unknowns that we should be able to answer with our asses in the hot seats each day.
What would your wives/mothers say if they asked you these questions and we can only say uh um well we go with our gut.
Just something to ponder.
 

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