- Location
- NW Indiana
Tom,
What did you do?
What did you do?
Feedback on scenario
- Thread starter Tom Dunlap
- Start date
- Location
- Retired in Minneapolis
I'll elaborate in a while. I want to keep the contributions coming for a while.
- Location
- Dallas no more, St. Louis MO
After the job, depending on the attitude and the likely hood that a bone headed mistake might be made again, I'd be inclined to pull his GRSC in for some "maintenance". Take away the Big Boy Toys and thus lessen the risk he's likely to put himself and the crew in until he shows that he has sense enough.
Louie Hampton
Louie Hampton
TreeCo
Carpal tunnel level member
I don't know about you guys but I would have paid $20 to see a video of Tom's face when he discovered this scenario!
Of course the challenge is to get the climber to stop all cutting while they get themselves out of danger....while at the same time not making the climber feel disrespected.
Scenario #1,
The climber while still in the tree shouts back down "I've done it a thousand times and I'm still here" as he fires up his chainsaw......
Scenario #2,
The climber while still in the tree shouts back "Oh man, what was I thinking!" ....and proceeds to follow direction.
Scenario #3,
The climber while still in the tree shouts back "Alright man, I'll move my climbing rope, you are the boss but I've done this a thousand times and I'm still here".
The important thing is that the climber moves out of danger. The direction supervision takes is largely going to be determined by the attitude of the climber after first contact. Supervision must raise the level of seriousness of their command until it is understood by the climber that their climbing rope must be moved before dropping this piece into the rigging or there are going to be serious repercussions from management up to and including termination.
Dan
Of course the challenge is to get the climber to stop all cutting while they get themselves out of danger....while at the same time not making the climber feel disrespected.
Scenario #1,
The climber while still in the tree shouts back down "I've done it a thousand times and I'm still here" as he fires up his chainsaw......
Scenario #2,
The climber while still in the tree shouts back "Oh man, what was I thinking!" ....and proceeds to follow direction.
Scenario #3,
The climber while still in the tree shouts back "Alright man, I'll move my climbing rope, you are the boss but I've done this a thousand times and I'm still here".
The important thing is that the climber moves out of danger. The direction supervision takes is largely going to be determined by the attitude of the climber after first contact. Supervision must raise the level of seriousness of their command until it is understood by the climber that their climbing rope must be moved before dropping this piece into the rigging or there are going to be serious repercussions from management up to and including termination.
Dan
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
"Hack Forum"; what is that????
[/ QUOTE ]
What fool said that?
[/ QUOTE ]
The same old fool...
As to the scenario in the picture, Treeco's right. Whatever the climber, or us on the forum think, its the supervisors job to ensure health and safety of the employees on site. If this ultimately means firing someone for refusing to respond, do be it.
The buck stops with him. If he can smooth the situation diplomaticaly, all the better.
[ QUOTE ]
"Hack Forum"; what is that????
[/ QUOTE ]
What fool said that?
[/ QUOTE ]
The same old fool...
As to the scenario in the picture, Treeco's right. Whatever the climber, or us on the forum think, its the supervisors job to ensure health and safety of the employees on site. If this ultimately means firing someone for refusing to respond, do be it.
The buck stops with him. If he can smooth the situation diplomaticaly, all the better.
- Location
- Home of the New Jersey Devils
I still think that the rigging looks alright to me. That re-direct angle is way greater than 90*. Looks more like 1x1 ratio. Anyway, I just don't like being tied in between the rigging like that. I would ask the climber to imagine if the re-direct broke or maybe the lines were running fast across the climbing line.
He's using a RG and obviously knows a good deal about rigging (judging from the setup). You also said that he was using a GRCS and that means that it was probably controlled. All things considered, we are being very critical, but that's expected, right?
He's using a RG and obviously knows a good deal about rigging (judging from the setup). You also said that he was using a GRCS and that means that it was probably controlled. All things considered, we are being very critical, but that's expected, right?
- Location
- Seattle WA
ok, i'll bite. if i walked onto one of my job sites and saw one of my guys about to endanger life and limb in this way i'd shut things down, of course, and change the tie in as everyone has said, and probably tell him/her to take smaller pieces since i'm like that on big removals. mostly though, i'd think - boy did i screw up. what was i thinking sending that guy up that tree with the skills/training/attitude whatever that put him in that situation to begin with. maybe i'm too conservative with employees and maybe i'd make more bucks if i weren't, but if you're working for me you won't be asked to do anything i'm not 100% sure you can succeed at - that goes for fine pruning, rigging, driving the chip truck, bout everything. i don't know if that would be realistic for a larger company, but it works for me.
not to point fingers at all, as i have no idea what daily complexities led to this climber being in this tree. maybe it had to be done and he was the only guy or whatever. just seems like the real issue, like norm said, is training or lack thereof.
i appreciate what tod and mark said as well, about not busting the guy in front of the crew and trying to make a potential accident into a positive learning experience. shows they are good managers that they brought it up.
my 2 cents.
k.
not to point fingers at all, as i have no idea what daily complexities led to this climber being in this tree. maybe it had to be done and he was the only guy or whatever. just seems like the real issue, like norm said, is training or lack thereof.
i appreciate what tod and mark said as well, about not busting the guy in front of the crew and trying to make a potential accident into a positive learning experience. shows they are good managers that they brought it up.
my 2 cents.
k.
- Location
- Retired in Minneapolis
The replies are all really valuable. Please don't think that all I'm doing is tossing out bait. My intention for starting this thread is on many levels. All of what I wanted to solicit has been expressed. As more people are weighing in and adding comments my reply is starting to come together.
If there are more comments...keep 'em coming.
If there are more comments...keep 'em coming.
- Location
- Nashville, TN
Hey that's me!!!!!! and you are not understanding the whole picture, that was my climbing line, but it was not my means of support at the time of the cut, i had two other points of attachment, also i moved the climbing line to the other side of the rigging prior to cutting all the way through, it was on the side that it is on in the pic because we were lifting.... there was three feet of slack in my line and when the piece came out(perfectly by the way) my line was cleared..... if you could see the angle that the piece was at it would make more sense...... i rigged the whole other side of the tree with my line on this side(not crossing) and had 1 to do on the other side (crossing) i was only 8' off the ground and had enough lanyard to escape. Did not want to climb all the way back up to redirect or spend time with a throwline, we were blocking the street.....
there is always more to a story then 1 picture
i don't think that we should be soooo quick to judge (of course the picture did look bad! but a video camera would have told a different story)
Rob
there is always more to a story then 1 picture
i don't think that we should be soooo quick to judge (of course the picture did look bad! but a video camera would have told a different story)
Rob
TreeCo
Carpal tunnel level member
[ QUOTE ]
Hey that's me!!!!!!
///
i don't think that we should be soooo quick to judge (of course the picture did look bad! but a video camera would have told a different story)
[/ QUOTE ]
Rob aren't you the same guy who was speedlining that tree over the water and the tree you were in started to lean so you put up some guy lines?
And weren't you the guy that said about your company's failed crane "it gets abused all the time"?
Now you are saying you had 3 feet of slack in your climbing line and were secured by other means. If you would have disconnected this line from your saddle that would be OK but I don't think you did.
Yep, the picture is looking bad. It looks like recklessness and it is only a matter of time until.........
Dan
Hey that's me!!!!!!
///
i don't think that we should be soooo quick to judge (of course the picture did look bad! but a video camera would have told a different story)
[/ QUOTE ]
Rob aren't you the same guy who was speedlining that tree over the water and the tree you were in started to lean so you put up some guy lines?
And weren't you the guy that said about your company's failed crane "it gets abused all the time"?
Now you are saying you had 3 feet of slack in your climbing line and were secured by other means. If you would have disconnected this line from your saddle that would be OK but I don't think you did.
Yep, the picture is looking bad. It looks like recklessness and it is only a matter of time until.........
Dan
- Location
- Bloomington, Indiana
[ QUOTE ]
And weren't you the guy that said about your company's failed crane "it gets abused all the time"?
[/ QUOTE ]
Still waiting on those photos that were going to be posted...
And weren't you the guy that said about your company's failed crane "it gets abused all the time"?
[/ QUOTE ]
Still waiting on those photos that were going to be posted...
Mangoes
Participating member
- Location
- Greater Toronto Area
[ QUOTE ]
Hey that's me!!!!!! and you are not understanding the whole picture, that was my climbing line, but it was not my means of support at the time of the cut, i had two other points of attachment, also i moved the climbing line to the other side of the rigging prior to cutting all the way through, it was on the side that it is on in the pic because we were lifting.... there was three feet of slack in my line and when the piece came out(perfectly by the way) my line was cleared..... if you could see the angle that the piece was at it would make more sense...... i rigged the whole other side of the tree with my line on this side(not crossing) and had 1 to do on the other side (crossing) i was only 8' off the ground and had enough lanyard to escape. Did not want to climb all the way back up to redirect or spend time with a throwline, we were blocking the street.....
there is always more to a story then 1 picture
i don't think that we should be soooo quick to judge (of course the picture did look bad! but a video camera would have told a different story)
Rob
[/ QUOTE ]
For real......or a joke of some sort? In the abyss of cyberspace no one knows for sure. So again.....for real? It's RW in that pic?
edit: If so it is not really the smooth, refined, systemic approach of a wizard, not meaning to be offensive, but it's a point to consider
Hey that's me!!!!!! and you are not understanding the whole picture, that was my climbing line, but it was not my means of support at the time of the cut, i had two other points of attachment, also i moved the climbing line to the other side of the rigging prior to cutting all the way through, it was on the side that it is on in the pic because we were lifting.... there was three feet of slack in my line and when the piece came out(perfectly by the way) my line was cleared..... if you could see the angle that the piece was at it would make more sense...... i rigged the whole other side of the tree with my line on this side(not crossing) and had 1 to do on the other side (crossing) i was only 8' off the ground and had enough lanyard to escape. Did not want to climb all the way back up to redirect or spend time with a throwline, we were blocking the street.....
there is always more to a story then 1 picture
i don't think that we should be soooo quick to judge (of course the picture did look bad! but a video camera would have told a different story)
Rob
[/ QUOTE ]
For real......or a joke of some sort? In the abyss of cyberspace no one knows for sure. So again.....for real? It's RW in that pic?
edit: If so it is not really the smooth, refined, systemic approach of a wizard, not meaning to be offensive, but it's a point to consider
- Location
- Home of the New Jersey Devils
Sorry that this took a personal turn. The "exercise" was good for all of us. I hope that you don't take offense to the things being said, but insteadlook to gain something from them. We all comment from one pic in our little computer worlds and could never truly see the whole picture unless we were there. Maybe it was risky? Maybe it looked worse than it was? These are your peers though so take what they say and try to listen. Like my dad says, you never learn toom much with your mouth open. /forum/images/graemlins/grin.gif
R
rich_h
Guest
Kathy,
I sure hope your company is accepting applications because your attitude towards the work is exactly how I think all climbers should be brought up. The climbers safety should always be established first and way down the line the money issue should come up. Having owned a company myself I know first hand how hard this is to actually achieve, but I can guarantee that I never put a climber in a position that I would not have done myself. Furthermore, if the climber felt unsure about something or decided to back out to go a different route I feel this should be applauded and not held against them.
This field is difficult and dangerous enough as it is. If money drives all decisions we can be sure that finding quality employees will be even more difficult in the future than it is now. Production is vital for companies to survive, but not at the cost of safety.
Sorry, I know this was a bit off topic but I just wish more companies shared kathys views.
I sure hope your company is accepting applications because your attitude towards the work is exactly how I think all climbers should be brought up. The climbers safety should always be established first and way down the line the money issue should come up. Having owned a company myself I know first hand how hard this is to actually achieve, but I can guarantee that I never put a climber in a position that I would not have done myself. Furthermore, if the climber felt unsure about something or decided to back out to go a different route I feel this should be applauded and not held against them.
This field is difficult and dangerous enough as it is. If money drives all decisions we can be sure that finding quality employees will be even more difficult in the future than it is now. Production is vital for companies to survive, but not at the cost of safety.
Sorry, I know this was a bit off topic but I just wish more companies shared kathys views.
- Location
- Nashville, TN
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Hey that's me!!!!!!
///
Rob aren't you the same guy who was speedlining that tree over the water and the tree you were in started to lean so you put up some guy lines?
Dan
[/ QUOTE ]
Dan, i do thank you for the concern, although i do think that if you paint a onesided picture on any of us it could look bad
you need to go back and read the post on the SL job.... the tree was back tied, but the ground all around was heaving, so i had to find "higher ground" to tie to. as for the crane, well.... i don't know man, the piece was in my charts, and i did not pretention.... i would like to say that anyone in my shoes would have had the same thing happen.... but i don't know, maybe it was just the equipment, and maybe i just screwed up.... I have been an arborist for 11 years, and have admittedly done some crazy crap (most of it long long ago) but i also know the physics behind what we do... i have (knock on wood) never been hurt, nor have i hurt anyone.... sometimes when i look back at things that i did when i started doing tree work (ok i was a hack!) it makes me wonder how i've made it here intact. but i have..... and i have learned from my mistakes.... I'm learning from this one too, no not the rope trick, although i will agree that this is not the best practice, but i am learning from the poor way that this was handled.. That brings me to answer the original question:
Tom, here is how i would have handled it as "this Guys" manager.... If i thought that there was something unsafe going on, in the tree or out of the tree.... i would stop it right away! no taking pictures! my job as a manager is first and foremost the safety of my guys.... if you think there was something unsafe happening, then you need to stop it! So if this guy wasent stopped that can only mean one of two things:
1. safety is not first and foremost
2. you don't think that the practice was dangerous
ok ok ok
contrary to what ya'll might think, i'm not mad, and i don't take this post personally. i do think that people can learn from the picture that was posted (and i hope that this was the spirit that it was posted with) we all need to remember why we are here (the buzz) we are here to learn and share what we have learned, this should be a fun and enlightning process... and the last couple of posts have not been fun for me /forum/images/graemlins/crazy.gif... i have seen others treated the same way, and i don't think that it is very constructive, any way enough crying from me im getting dehydrated.
so there it is... a little correction, a little advice, and a little crying..... man i love tree work!
Rob
[ QUOTE ]
Hey that's me!!!!!!
///
Rob aren't you the same guy who was speedlining that tree over the water and the tree you were in started to lean so you put up some guy lines?
Dan
[/ QUOTE ]
Dan, i do thank you for the concern, although i do think that if you paint a onesided picture on any of us it could look bad
you need to go back and read the post on the SL job.... the tree was back tied, but the ground all around was heaving, so i had to find "higher ground" to tie to. as for the crane, well.... i don't know man, the piece was in my charts, and i did not pretention.... i would like to say that anyone in my shoes would have had the same thing happen.... but i don't know, maybe it was just the equipment, and maybe i just screwed up.... I have been an arborist for 11 years, and have admittedly done some crazy crap (most of it long long ago) but i also know the physics behind what we do... i have (knock on wood) never been hurt, nor have i hurt anyone.... sometimes when i look back at things that i did when i started doing tree work (ok i was a hack!) it makes me wonder how i've made it here intact. but i have..... and i have learned from my mistakes.... I'm learning from this one too, no not the rope trick, although i will agree that this is not the best practice, but i am learning from the poor way that this was handled.. That brings me to answer the original question:
Tom, here is how i would have handled it as "this Guys" manager.... If i thought that there was something unsafe going on, in the tree or out of the tree.... i would stop it right away! no taking pictures! my job as a manager is first and foremost the safety of my guys.... if you think there was something unsafe happening, then you need to stop it! So if this guy wasent stopped that can only mean one of two things:
1. safety is not first and foremost
2. you don't think that the practice was dangerous
ok ok ok
contrary to what ya'll might think, i'm not mad, and i don't take this post personally. i do think that people can learn from the picture that was posted (and i hope that this was the spirit that it was posted with) we all need to remember why we are here (the buzz) we are here to learn and share what we have learned, this should be a fun and enlightning process... and the last couple of posts have not been fun for me /forum/images/graemlins/crazy.gif... i have seen others treated the same way, and i don't think that it is very constructive, any way enough crying from me im getting dehydrated.
so there it is... a little correction, a little advice, and a little crying..... man i love tree work!
Rob
TreeCo
Carpal tunnel level member
[ QUOTE ]
so there it is... a little correction, a little advice, and a little crying..... man i love tree work!
Rob
[/ QUOTE ]
Sorry about the rough post Rob and thanks for taking it like you did.
I hope you guys get things worked out.
so there it is... a little correction, a little advice, and a little crying..... man i love tree work!
Rob
[/ QUOTE ]
Sorry about the rough post Rob and thanks for taking it like you did.
I hope you guys get things worked out.
- Location
- Woodstock Ga
Hey Rob
So that was you HUH.
Nice hard hat. What, did you just get off the short bus or something? /forum/images/graemlins/grin.gif Just kidding.
Rob I hope we can all learn from this and other posts here.They have may not have been fun for you but it's a learning experience for yourself and everyone.
The posting of the crane failure got me into the office of the V.P. to have a talking to. So it has not been fun for me either.
Anyway I hope your last day at "ATS" was fun and you didn't work to hard. Wish you the best in your future endevors.
Robert
p.s. Don't forget.... Pics of the crane, Rope Bag,and HAVE FUN
So that was you HUH.
Nice hard hat. What, did you just get off the short bus or something? /forum/images/graemlins/grin.gif Just kidding.
Rob I hope we can all learn from this and other posts here.They have may not have been fun for you but it's a learning experience for yourself and everyone.
The posting of the crane failure got me into the office of the V.P. to have a talking to. So it has not been fun for me either.
Anyway I hope your last day at "ATS" was fun and you didn't work to hard. Wish you the best in your future endevors.
Robert
p.s. Don't forget.... Pics of the crane, Rope Bag,and HAVE FUN
- Location
- Nashville, TN
Thanks Robert!
Best to you, Tom D., and all of the other guys that I worked with up there..... just remember: Go big, then go home.... Don't ever look back..... live to have no regrets..... don't pet your dog when it's on fire.... never lend money, always give it.... learn something new every day, then right it down(for you older guys /forum/images/graemlins/9lame.gif).... don't sweat the petty stuff, and don't pet your dog when it's on fire(hey keeping it pg)....
call me if you need anything. (that goes for the rest of you out there too)
Rob
Best to you, Tom D., and all of the other guys that I worked with up there..... just remember: Go big, then go home.... Don't ever look back..... live to have no regrets..... don't pet your dog when it's on fire.... never lend money, always give it.... learn something new every day, then right it down(for you older guys /forum/images/graemlins/9lame.gif).... don't sweat the petty stuff, and don't pet your dog when it's on fire(hey keeping it pg)....
call me if you need anything. (that goes for the rest of you out there too)
Rob
Riggs
Participating member
- Location
- Bryn Mawr , Pa.
Allright , that's all good . Why did you have your block and your tie in married ?
New threads New posts
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test
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KBNest -Midline Attachable SRS Canopy Anchor.
- Started by TreeSteward
- Replies: 1
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