F8 vs. Munter Hitch

[opposablethumb]

Been trying to take everything off my saddle that I don't use regularly. I have one of those silly large rescue f8's with the ears that snag on everything. My thought was that it would be a last resort way to get out of the tree, either on Ddrt on coming down from on a footlock prusik.

It would be nice if I had just one extra biner on my saddle for various uses, and if it's an HMS, I could just use a Munter Hitch in place of the F8.

Am I thinking along the right lines here? Pros and Cons?

Christmas cheers...

 

[Jeff_Cochran]

i love the munter. you can also use a large ring an extra krab to make a belay tube and that is way better than the munter or f8(no rope hockling). i just use the munter and a hms.

 

[Tom Dunlap]

If you're going to strip down be sure to keep a biner with a large radius, like Jeff says, HMC biner. Other shapes and dimensions will work but an HMS is best.

 

[Jeff_Cochran]

i recommend a hms and a large aluminum ring. the ring can be used with a dynemia sling to make a monkeys paw to do spar work

 

[Coconut]

The Munter Hitch is a great knot to know, but for large diameter double rope you need a fairly large biner. Try a Black Diamond ATC or similar belay device, they are light, compact and easy to use.

 

[SQRLchaser]

I've never owned a figure 8 - always used a munter hitch from day 1 and been grateful for it!

 

[allmark]

I use a munter when single lining down a stem and retrieving the monkey tail. It works great and is simple

 

[Norm_Hall]

The nice thing about an F8, is a groundperson can help with a controlled descent by holding the line and pulling down litely near ground level.
Nothing against the Munter.

 

[Erlend]

[ QUOTE ]
The nice thing about an F8, is a groundperson can help with a controlled descent by holding the line and pulling down litely near ground level.
Nothing against the Munter.

[/ QUOTE ]

The same thing can be done with the Munther (ok, I just got a little unsure, but I think it can)

 

[Tom Dunlap]

Almost any rope wrap friction setup can be belayed from the ground too. Think of the groundie as the 'brake hand' that the climber uses.

 

[moss]

A rec climber over on the Tree Climbers Coalition (TCC) uses a "Monster Munter" to rappel SRT. You can look the knot up on Youtube or elsewhere if you've never seen it. The advantage over the Munter is it doesn't twist the rope. The downside is there is quite a bit of rope-to-rope friction, you have to go slow on long descents to prevent overheating the rope and over time it will wear the rope faster than using an F8 or other more rope-friendly mechanical devices.
-AJ

 

[opposablethumb]

I've been wondering what the specific applications are of an F8 or a Munter for a tree climber.

I was taught that the F8 was never designed to be used without a backup, i.e. prusik of some sort. That seems intuitively correct to me. Seeing as how the Munter functions similarly, I'd expect the same rule to apply.

For a DdRT climber, how important is it to carry a F8 or HMS krab for a Munter? It seems that you can always tie off a blakes with the tail from your termination knot and descend on that more safely than descending free on a F8 or Munter, and if you used the blakes with the F8 or Munter, it would just seem unnecessary.

So why would you carry a F8 or HMS krab for this application?

Only reasons I can see are:
1) Emergency descent on a doubled rope when static footlocking
2) Emergency descent on a single line when working down a spar
3) And then maybe in some SRT applications???

 

[Coconut]

There is no need to back up a F8 when decending. You can use the prussik to hold a position is you wanted to work, instead of doing a lock-off.

 

[Blinky]

The F8 was very definitely designed for use stand alone, it evolved from the Sticht plate (so was the ATC).

It wasn't until I got into tree care that I even heard of using a backup with rappel device. Your brain is your backup.

With that said, when I want to stop or have some dodgy brush to get through on the way down, I use a short version a footlock prusik with the 8.

Munter is good too though, I just learned on an 8.

 

[DSMc]

[ QUOTE ]
For a DdRT climber, how important is it to carry a F8 or HMS krab for a Munter?

[/ QUOTE ]

When climbing doubled rope, what is one thing that the climber is always paying attention to and adjusting for?

Answer: Tail entanglement.

It doesn't take much experience working doubled rope to know that a snagged tail, when you are 3/4 of the way up the tree is a big problem. Most high time climbers will be constantly clearing their tails without giving any thought to it at all. It becomes second nature.

But even with care, it can still happen. And if you are, indeed, 3/4 of the way up a tall tree and the tail of your rope is hopelessly snagged, you will be very glad to have a lightweight figure 8 or HMS carabiner on your saddle.

Dave

 

[opposablethumb]

DSMc - That makes a lot of sense - I'd never thought that one through.

And Blinky said: "Your brain is your backup".

I like that. Sometimes I get so caught up in trying to build a bulletproof system that I forget that the first (and really the only) safety tool I have is my brain.

cheers.

 

[Maui Palm & Tree Care]

you should have your brain not only when doing this but also before you even saddle up and take your feet off the ground.

as for the tail getting tangled all i have to say is, rope bags, rope bags, rope bags, rope bags. yup im a convert to bags.

 

[Tom Dunlap]

For climbers like Blinky who come from rock climbing a backup might not be as needed. His muscle memory is built differently. For tree climbers a backup might be a good consideration. Tree climber's muscle memory is built on 'let go, lock off'. In this case, using a rap device could lead to a disaster. During tense situations muscle memory is relied upon. The brain and muscles might over-ride reality and the climber could let go of the rap device...leading to a fall.

 

[opposablethumb]

Josh,
I think what Dave is talking about with tail entanglement is the possibility of any part of the tail of your line between you and the ground getting caught/wrapped/hung on something like a super tight crotch, a stub, or something else. If this happens, chances are that the stuck portion of the rope is out of reach of your groundman, and effectively out of your reach, because your tail can no longer run for you to descend to the stuck part. In that case, the only exit is a descender...Correct me if I'm wrong here, Dave...

But yes, rope bags are the cream in the coffee...

 

[southsoundtree]

Too few people use rappel back-ups in rock climbing scenarios where they are rappelling off of a climb, imo. I generally don't, but count myself as pretty experienced and able to grab hold of the rope in an emergency and not panic. I would use one if I'm the first rappeller where there is loose rock or the potential to invert, like if wearing a pack.

After the first person is down, a fireman's belay, where the person below holds the tail(s) of the rope in order to be able to pull down and increase the friction at the descender in an emergency, is my way to back up the other people in the party.

Sometimes, if I'm going down last, I'll have the other person single line (rope) rappel on a fixed (tied-off) rope, while belaying them on the other strand.

Rappelling, and hiking off on steep terrain are where so many injuries occur during "rock climbing". A lot of statistics/ news people don't differentiate between "rock climbing" and "I learned to rappel 'Aussie style' in the Marines. I'll grab the rope and harness. You grab the Coors Lite."



I would rather "carry" a Munter Hitch back-up, as in a 'biner that I already have for my hitch, than a 'biner plus F8. If I were to be looking for a rappelling device, I'd use a variation on a stitch plate, like a Reverso, ATC, Jaws, etc., that is appropriate for the rope diameter. Descend slowly enough that heat build-up isn't a problem, and you won't have to spend time de-hockling your lines.