Experimental Pruning

Is this kind of tree management too extreme?

  • Yes

    Votes: 9 52.9%

  • No

    Votes: 3 17.6%

  • It's worth a try to save an old tree for a few more years

    Votes: 5 29.4%
  • Total voters
    17
guymayor said:
Why was the crack in the wall viewed as a problem of such magnitude? People are funny.
Click to expand...
Hmmmmm....

Collapsed wall kills 1, injures 3:
http://cityroom.blogs.nytimes.com/2...-collapse-kills-worker-injures-3-others/?_r=0

Wall collapse injures 5 people:
http://nypost.com/2014/07/02/collapse-at-brooklyn-bridge-injures-5-people/

1 student killed, 23 injured in wall collapse:
http://www.gettyimages.com/detail/n...school-children-received-news-photo/457307364

I could go on but I think 3 is enough...
 
Deferring is a copout. There is no civil engineer with any more experience than you have with such a wall .
If a wall interferes with a tree (or vice versa if viewed that way), it's an arborist's job to find a solution.

Uncovering and examining the area of concern is often useful. Maybe just moving one rock from a buttress root would stop the pressure, and the perceived problem.

Will crown loss lessen or increase the expansion of girth? We can throw out lots of theories but that's all they are.
If the only tool we got is a saw, our range of solutions is way limited, and will not help many trees.

Good gracious TL, this is a 3' stone wall with near zero liability. How relevant is it to dig up scary stories about tall walls? Reason is already in short supply; ramping up emotions does not clarify analysis. :baba:
 
A 3' stone wall could do some damage Guy. Ultimately, my preference would be to restructure the wall around the tree if adjacent property owners allowed. I just don't think it's right to say it's silly to worry about the wall.
 
A 3' wall could hurt someone, if they were laying down next to it at the precise moment a rock fell.
I think they call that risk 'negligible', so stirring up fears about it may not be compelling, or convincing.

Restructure, as in, move the rock that is compressing the buttress, and glue the others internally so the wall does not fall apart. Is there another or a better plan?
Who said "it's right to say it's silly to worry about the wall."? I didn't. Look up the logical fallacy called 'strawman'.
 
Guy, what is this publishing of Shigo's that you keep referring to from 1986? I've read all of the good doctor I can get my hands and don't remember him ever advocating heading cuts.
 
I skimmed over this.

how about dig and airspade along the wall. prune the roots back properly. install bio-barrier and be done with it.
?
 
I have a fair amount of faith that the effort the tree will be expending this year and in future years after hard prunes to leaf out will cause a slowing in root growth and may achieve the goal of saving the wall. Kudos for trying.

I do like the idea of root pruning and wonder how many arbos here have experience with it and could share resources or results?
 
"what is this publishing of Shigo's that you keep referring to from 1986? I've read all of the good doctor I can get my hands and don't remember him ever advocating heading cuts."
Read A New Tree Biology Dictionary and try to find the term 'heading cut' defined.
Go ahead...
It's not there, because 'heading cut' is a nonsense term, with multiple and vague suggested definitions.
Then read p. 73. Pruning cuts at nodes cause less injury than cuts at internodes.

"a slowing in root growth and may achieve the goal of saving the wall."
Trouble is, it's not just root growth that's involved. Buttress swelling involves stem tissue too. There's no way I know of to prune a buttress root safely and properly.
There are lots of resources on root pruning but that's not the issue with this tree. The branch pruning was OK, but it's not clear that it met, or could meet, the objective of lessening the impact of the tree on the wall.
It's a lot easier to change the wall than the tree.
 
OK TL I mistook the vines on the wall for bushes above it. We both agree the wall needs work more than the tree, so this may be a tangent, but here goes.
The wall is made of small rocks.
The top is covered with a woody plant, which aids support.
Please identify the liability--what is the occupancy rate?
What is the likelihood of failure in a timeframe of say 3 years (or you pick a timeframe)?
Realistically, what are the potential consequences?

:bailando:

Still looks near zero liability from here. Simply put, if we owned the wall, we would know something should be done. But would we really worry about getting sued?
 
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Thanks. I'm just glad we're looking at it from both points of view now :) Give me some time and I'll try to answer your questions as best I can.
 
Ronald Reagan would have torn it down. The Tea Party would just move it closer to Mexico.
I'm thinking there's a stonemason nearby who can repair the wall, and that a reciprocating saw will handle the roots. But that's just me.
 
I feel like the rocks really aren't that small. In fact some are pretty large. Consider that with a collapse, there will be slabs of rock and mortar, not just separate rocks. None of us knows how that wall was built, except maybe TC. Is it a block wall with a stone face? Is it just stone and mortar?

If the vines covered the entire height of the wall then I think they'd lend some safety in a collapse but covering just the top portion like they are, they might just come down with the tumbling wall.

So what could happen if a sizeable section of that wall collapsed? Well, cars are parked there, which means passersby are frequent. So we have potential vehicle damage or bodily injury. To what extent? I couldn't say from just a photo and would only be speculating even seeing it in person. But Murphy's law isn't irrelevant here. And if something did happen, and it were proven there was prior knowledge of an issue, we got trouble.

Yes, I'm all for saving the tree. I agree with JeffGu that the wall can be reworked. But just as you don't like an irrational decision to remove a tree, it's also premature to jump to conclusions about the wall. Let's not forget, it is in the UK. That wall could be 300 years old, or more.
 
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guymayor said:
Deferring is a copout. There is no civil engineer with any more experience than you have with such a wall .
If a wall interferes with a tree (or vice versa if viewed that way), it's an arborist's job to find a solution.
Click to expand...
Not a cop out but a deference to professional with the knowledge of these types of structures. It may not be a civil engineer, I agree but certainly it's not an arborist. Since we are always decrying other trades, no matter how allied they are with us, for doing treework then it only behooves us to respect their expertise. There may be a number of ways to create a better interface between the wall and tree that will allow the wall to retain its form and strength while the tree grows around and over it.

Whether the growth is slowed or unaffected, it will continue. The species has the potential for considerable girth in the long run. If it's rate of growth is halved it still may be enough to continue damaging the wall. If that's the case then the pruning was for naught since the wall will still need to be addressed. :estudioso:
 
guymayor said:
"what is this publishing of Shigo's that you keep referring to from 1986? I've read all of the good doctor I can get my hands and don't remember him ever advocating heading cuts."
Read A New Tree Biology Dictionary and try to find the term 'heading cut' defined.
Go ahead...
It's not there, because 'heading cut' is a nonsense term, with multiple and vague suggested definitions.
Then read p. 73. Pruning cuts at nodes cause less injury than cuts at internodes.

"a slowing in root growth and may achieve the goal of saving the wall."
Trouble is, it's not just root growth that's involved. Buttress swelling involves stem tissue too. There's no way I know of to prune a buttress root safely and properly.
There are lots of resources on root pruning but that's not the issue with this tree. The branch pruning was OK, but it's not clear that it met, or could meet, the objective of lessening the impact of the tree on the wall.
It's a lot easier to change the wall than the tree.
Click to expand...
PA 124,129, and 130 of Modern Arboriculture describe tipping. I would use that as a synonym for heading.
You are correct, heading does not appear in TNTBD.
 
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