European Standards and us!?

charlieb

charlieb

Location
New Orleans, LA
Does anyone know where we can get the European standards for safety on climbing products? -- Or can clarify the following dilemma?
The reason I ask, which may concern many of us, is that most of Petzl's products are listed as complying with these EN standards, but when you check the particular product instruction brochure it seems that some products will not meet the ANSI standards. I was told by many climbers and arbos that the EN or Euro standards were much stricter than ours, so what gives?
In particular, for example, both the Grillon positioning lanyard (which is supposed to be Petzl's answer to industrial work positioning) and also the new Petzl sidestraps which converts harnesses to floating D's, both are listed in their brochure as meeting EN358 Euro standards, but when you read further in the instruction booklet it also clearly states that the maximum upward force load is 15Kn on both these products.
If I calculate correctly, 15Kn X 225 = 3,375lbs, which does not meet the ANSI minimum breaking strength of 5400 lbs.
Am I missing something??
Is the EN358 standard perhaps using different criteria or type of measurement than ANSI?? Otherwise, could so many of Petzl's products be sub-standard to the Ansi standards?
Can anyone shed some light on this ??
 
Hey Charlie, I don't know, but I'm right up over you a tad, in Alex. Welcome! /forum/images/graemlins/elefant.gif
 
Thanks Master. Can't believe there's many of us this far south! Or at least haven't seen any others posting from around us.
Anyway great to know ya.
Wish these Euro standards were as easy to find out.
 
Glens,
Thanks a lot for the info.

I chose the EN358 standard (which is the one in question)from the list on the left and clicked/tried the only English site which was Britain and it says it can't find anything with that search.(--Stupid site doesn't even return anything when you click on it) I can get French and DN(Denmark?) but can't read either one.

Can you check it out also to see if you can get a site in English to order the document?
Greatly appreciated.
 
You can find some documents for sale at http://www.bsi-global.com/Health/PPE/index.xalter

There's also http://www.bsiamericas.com/index.xalter but a quick look doesn't seem to show the EN standards there. You may be able to contact them and inquire.

I ran across a list at the tail end of google's HTML version of http://www.totalaccess.co.uk/assets/graphics/static/SINGING_Working.pdf which also has a couple not shown in my earlier link:

EN 341 Personal protective equipment against falls from a height. Descender devices

EN 353-2 Personal protective equipment against falls from a height. Guided type fall arresters on a flexible anchorage line

EN 354 Personal protective equipment against falls from a height. Lanyards

EN 355 Personal protective equipment against falls from a height. Energy absorbers

EN 358 Personal equipment for work positioning and prevention of falls from a height. Work positioning systems

EN 360 Personal protective equipment against falls from a height. Retractable type fall arresters

EN 361 Personal protective equipment against falls from a height. Full body harnesses

EN 362 Personal protective equipment against falls from a height. Connectors

EN 363 Personal protective equipment against falls from a height. Fall arrester systems

EN 364 Personal protective equipment against falls from a height. Test methods

EN 365 Personal protective equipment against falls from a height. General requirements for instructions for use and for marking

EN 397 Industrial safety helmets

EN 795 Protection against falls from a height - Anchor devices

EN 813 Personal protective equipment against falls from a height. Sit harnesses

EN 1891 Personal protective equipment against falls from a height. Low stretch kernmantel ropes


All for sale individually, no doubt :(

Glen
 
Thanks.
This could take a while and cost some.
I'll talk to a Petzl rep. Monday and get to the bottom of this hopefully.
Also other manuf. reps. that I talked with during the week are calling them too.
Let ya'll know something soon hopefully.
 
Hi Charlie. Not sure if this is what your after but it may be worth a look.

http://www.fcauk.com/afagguides.htm

This is a list of all the safety guides that pertain to our industry. This is what we have to work to according to our HSE which I guess is similar to OSHA.

You can print any of these free, and they are in leaflet format rather than full page which takes forever to print off,

Hope it helps, but I guess it might add to the confusion!!
 
Thanks a lot Rupe.
The only guide I could find appropriate was, Tree Climbing Operations, which contained only the statement that the work positioning sit harness must have a pelvic attachment and leg straps.(EN813, EN358). But it doesn't give any more detail as to what EN358 says, especially about any kind of minimum breaking strengths, which is what we're looking for.
Greatly appreciated and interesting.
 
Go to http://bsonline.techindex.co.uk/BSI2/Dir1/SitePage.asp?LS=&PgID=0002

Enter "work positioning" (no quotes) into the "Keywords" box near the top.

Select "GBM07 - Occupational & Personal Safety" in the "Module Number" box near the bottom.

Click "Search"

I'd provide a direct URL, but they aren't persistent (stupid, stupid website design).

3 results as per the attachment PDF.
 

Attachments

Thanks Glens.
I got the same search results, but when I go to purchase the docs., they say I have to register, then when I go to register, they say they have a new website which won't be operating until 8/3/05 for hardcopies. The new url is www.bsonline.bsi-global.com. (Stupid, stupid site)
We'll get it eventually.
Meanwhile I hope to talk this week to a Petzl rep.
These Petzl products also will only allow a fall of no more than .5m which is not much at all. I wonder if this also is part of EN358?
Be careful out there!
 
This brings back bad memories on a similar issue from a long time ago on Treebuzz!

Basically, the american standards have a higher rated break strength than typical European based PPE. This doesn't mean it isn't strong enough - its more a question of strength over time!

UV degradation and abrasion takes its toll. Its a question of whether you want to climb light and retire equipment relatively early, or take the belts and braces approach and get really peed off if you have to retire something in ten years, but will happily wear something that weighs a tonne!

In terms of ergonomics, light weight equipment is best.

Ask Petzl when it should be retired.
 
Hi Charlie,
These are the main specs.
Harness, standard fall protection EN 813.
- static load, 15 kN
- dynamic load, 100 kg test-weight, length of the fall 2 m, fall
with the feet down, fall with the head down
- the buckles need a construction that cannot be opened by
accident
- the buckles may shift only 2 mm after a fall
- the breadths of the parts that carry the load need a minimum
breadth of 43 mm
- manual in accordance with EN 365

Sideways position rings, standard fall protection EN 358.
- harness, minimum breadth 43 mm
- static load, 15 kN
- dynamic load, length of fall 2 m, test-weight 100 kg
- manual in accordance with EN 361

Didj
 
Thanks for the specs., Didj.

Lazarus2, the point here is to make anyone aware of the products' specs, so that no one is fooled inadvertently into thinking that they are using a product that is stronger than it really is. Also, to get distributors to clarify the specs., before they sell you a product that you may not want to use. And finally, to hopefully get the ANSI standards changed, especially since the new draft is being negotiated very soon.

I received this confirmation today from a major U.S. distributor of arborist supplies:
"Today the rep. at Petzl confirmed the 15 KN rating of both the sidestraps and the grillon. Apparently, because Petzl is a French company, their products conform to the European standard, which is 15 KN(which equals 3,375lbs.) and not 5400 lbs(under ANSI). Bummer. However, this certainly does leave the door wide open for American manufacturers like Buckingham and New Tribe to come up with their own products comparable to Petzl’s so maybe this won’t be a bad thing in the end. I am going to start reading the little technical spec sheets that Petzl includes with all their stuff. I hope I don’t find out that I am using something that is not as strong as I thought."

So the dilemma has been confirmed, but the point is to be aware of the products specs. and to then make an accurate and well informed decision as to whether or not to use these products.

One practical suggestion toward helping a person decide whether or not to use the Grillon lanyard or Sidestraps or any product under EN358 dealing with work positioning, is this: since the ANSI standards are voluntary, and the 3,375lb. max.load limit is still within a 10:1 safe working load limit of 338lbs. for the average person (3,375 x 10% = 338lbs), then a person may still safely be able to choose and to use this equipment if they desired. However, they should of course be aware of all this.
 
Hi Charlie,
The other consideration here is that if your using your Grillon side to side.It will be 15kn half load!!If the Grillon was loaded to this point the force on the anchor(branch)will be around double that.I beleive that would be a greater force than the minimum set out standard for an anchor(if you could rate branches).There by making your anchor point the weakest link if you were going by the book.The strength of the configured system is always more important than the strength of anyone individual component before configuration.
Didj

P.s To get that sort of load on a positioning lanyard your going to need a truck hanging off you saddle
 
Oh

So by that reasoning, anyone working under the European guidance is a fool?

I know intelligent American climbers that use european rated PPE.

Like I said, the Euro standards are plenty strong enough, just maybe not as reliable over time as far as textiles are concerned. There is no need to be concerned with the grillion as hardware doesn't suffer from UV degradation.

In fact,there is no need to be concerned about the strength of these products at all as long as they are used and replaced appropriately.

I for one prefer the lighter european rated gear.

No-one should feel 'fooled' into buying inadequate kit.
The point here is, are you wearing equipment relative to your regional standards, and liable to prosecution, rather than are you in danger of a fall.
 
The other thing here is you cannot always take the rating as MBS.In general most systems or components that are 15kn in europe means Proof load.This is the amount of force put on it for an amount of time without showing any form of fatigue or deformation.Its actual breaking point will be much higher.
Didj
 
Thanks Didj for the science that we should all consider in choosing these products.
Lazarus,
You said,
[ QUOTE ]

So by that reasoning, anyone working under the European guidance is a fool?

[/ QUOTE ]
Are you talking to me?! or DidJ?
How did you arrive at that conclusion? Especially since at the end of your comments you agreed with my original point:
[ QUOTE ]

No-one should feel 'fooled' into buying inadequate kit.


[/ QUOTE ]
I agree wholeheartedly with you that these products are strong enough and more ergonomic etc. This is why I gave an example of them still being within a 10:1 safety factor.
I would rather use some of these products myself.
The problem is, many people over here on this side of the Pond are not being informed that these products don't meet ANSI. This was shown by the fact that even major distributors were not aware and also because there is rumors over here that the Euro standards are tougher, which is not always the case(as shown by the strength differences), or they are presuming here that because Petzl puts it out it must meet our standards, all of which are not true. So people are being fooled by the manufacturers/distributors or being ill informed or not informed at all and therefore not conforming to the appropriate standards. For example, the distributor who sold me my Grillon, was not aware and thought that because Petzl put it out and because it met Euro standards which are stricter(right?), it must easily meet ANSI, which all turned out to be totally untrue.
The sad part is we'd like to use these products, but like you say, we could face prosecution or get fired by employers who enforce ANSI and find out these products don't comply. Even some employers however are still not aware these product don't comply because the only way to find out is to track down a rep. from Petzl and inquire, like the distributor had to do in my earlier example.
Anyway, I spoke with Tom Dunlap who may try to get this issue brought up at the ANSI negotiating table soon and perhaps find a solution. I doubt ANSI will lower the strength standard, but maybe another idea could be to get manufacturers to label products as not meeting ANSI standards so all concerned could be aware.
 
I understand your frustrations whole heartedly Charlieb.

Its no different for us over here using ANSI kit.

The answer is unlikely to be resolved through safety commitees. Its up to the manufacturers to ensure their products meet the relevant standards. They won't do this if distributors are creating a market without them having to pay for extra testing.

The fact is that most equipment should easily pass both standards - maybe some minor alterations would have to be made. For example, with karabiners - the american standards require a proof load to be stamped on the krab (biner), whereas europeans require a minimum breaking strength (MBS), not to mention sport industry requirements!
Many krabs carry many marks. However, there have been instances of equipment failing over time that passed the tests. This is because of the relationship between the breaking strength in relation to the working load, and the number of cycles that can be withstood before failure. And then there is UV to consider. All of this is why I say look at the shelf life. Now theres an idea - equipment stamped with a 'Best Before Date'!

There really is a big market opening up for PROFESSIONAL & ETHICAL distributors to source kit that meets both standards. Or put pressure on to have the tests done if they can't find anything suitable. Or have someone make the stuff to pass both standards properly.

I am currently helping design equipment that will pass both standards. I think companies like Petzl can see the market potential. They just need to put their hands in their pockets and pay for tests.

The pragmatic way is to do your own risk assessment, show you have considered the way the equipment is designed to be used and that it is fit for purpose. Work out the safety factors and appropriate replacement date. Train staff on safe use, and just get on with it.

Unfortunately, lawyers laugh at pragma when they have dogmatic standards to squeeze cash. The individual's knowledge versus the standards and status of a safety/tests committee is a tough expensive fight. As a self employed arborist, you probably wouldn't be prosecuted unless you have an accident. If your risk assessment of equipment and techniques is good, that should never happen. Employees are different, if they get a grudge theres a lot they can use to lever against you - 'I'm not climbing today because that isn't ANSI standard!'. Or if they tie in incorrectly and have an accident, company policy and procedures are going to have a good raking over by the authorities. And then you could be persecuted by an 'Expert witness' (many of them are anything but!) who knows less than you do about the job and how to do it safely, but DOES know the standards inside out.

The answer, apart from manufacturers doing their bit, its down to elected individuals on safety committees: Don't allow anyone on safety committees who doesn't know how to represent the future of the industry properly. I know too many Toothless Tigers that won't fight a fight when thats what they're there to do (look at me! I'm on a safety committee - isn't it glorious! this is all about ME!) As for sheep....we've enough of them round here!Up the revolution, educate the masses, share a vision and fight for the future! Your in safe hands with Tom Dunlap.
 
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