I live on a small island off the NC coast. This Acer rubrum was downed by hurricane Fran. That saved me having to bring it down for dissection but it was much too early. After only 1 year I am not optimistic about the success of this technique on the other specimens.
Dynamic crown support system on old beech
- Thread starter peder-d
- Start date
There's an interesting article on cabling & bracing in the 07 TCIA mag written by Dennis P. Ryan Ph.D. at this link beginning on page 32.
http://www.tcia.org/PDFs/TCI_Mag_July_07.pdf
Now on page 33, at the end of the second paragraph, this Ph.D. doctor makes a huge mistake, which I sincerely hope was a typo overlooked by TCIA's editor! Because if I read it right the good doctor says that according to ANSI A300 standards on cabling&bracing, lags are to be used to anchor cables on a decayed branch rather than throughbolts!
I seriously doubt that Shigo or Felix would have approved of the good doctor's advice!
Other than that bit of bad advice, which I believe was an honest typo, I support everything the good doctor says in the article. Particularly his scepticism of the Cobra system's durability, functionality and aesthetic appeal.
jomoco
http://www.tcia.org/PDFs/TCI_Mag_July_07.pdf
Now on page 33, at the end of the second paragraph, this Ph.D. doctor makes a huge mistake, which I sincerely hope was a typo overlooked by TCIA's editor! Because if I read it right the good doctor says that according to ANSI A300 standards on cabling&bracing, lags are to be used to anchor cables on a decayed branch rather than throughbolts!
I seriously doubt that Shigo or Felix would have approved of the good doctor's advice!
Other than that bit of bad advice, which I believe was an honest typo, I support everything the good doctor says in the article. Particularly his scepticism of the Cobra system's durability, functionality and aesthetic appeal.
jomoco
- Location
- Retired in Minneapolis
Here's the answer for the asthetic appeal of any cabling system.
Which would you rather see, a cable or no limb/tree?
Is Cobra, or for that matter, any cabling system the most durable, functional or aesthetic solution? Not in my book. The best solution is a life time of long term, low intensive tree care.
I never lost the sale of a cabling job because the client didn't want to see the cable.
Which would you rather see, a cable or no limb/tree?
Is Cobra, or for that matter, any cabling system the most durable, functional or aesthetic solution? Not in my book. The best solution is a life time of long term, low intensive tree care.
I never lost the sale of a cabling job because the client didn't want to see the cable.
Tom, we can respectfully disagree with each other on the benefits, or lack thereof, the Cobra system.
Snake oil salesman and quackery is as harsh a term that I'll use in this thread for the proponents of the Cobra system, I promise.
jomoco
Snake oil salesman and quackery is as harsh a term that I'll use in this thread for the proponents of the Cobra system, I promise.
jomoco
- Location
- Retired in Minneapolis
I've never sold snake oil or performed quackery since I stopped topping trees.
You are being harsh at that.
You are being harsh at that.
So I gather that you think arborists in Europe that practice the fine art of pollarding are guilty of quackery Tom?
Once again I respectfully disagree with you. I think their pollarding is not only beautiful when done right, but also precludes the need for unsightly cabling, either steel or synthetic!
http://velcomefisitor.blogspot.com/2009/04/pollarding.html
I'll bet they hold up real well during extreme weather as well.
jomoco
Once again I respectfully disagree with you. I think their pollarding is not only beautiful when done right, but also precludes the need for unsightly cabling, either steel or synthetic!
http://velcomefisitor.blogspot.com/2009/04/pollarding.html
I'll bet they hold up real well during extreme weather as well.
jomoco
- Location
- Retired in Minneapolis
Whew...how did you make that jump! Where did I say anything about pollarding?
Never, even in the days thirty years ago when I was topping, have I ever combined topping with pollarding. If you care to understand my stance go back into my posts and read what I've written about pollarding here on TreeBuzz. I;ve got plenty of other stuff scattered across forums.
Would you please not read things into what I say? I'm weary of your combative responses, not just to me either.
Never, even in the days thirty years ago when I was topping, have I ever combined topping with pollarding. If you care to understand my stance go back into my posts and read what I've written about pollarding here on TreeBuzz. I;ve got plenty of other stuff scattered across forums.
Would you please not read things into what I say? I'm weary of your combative responses, not just to me either.
guymayor
Branched out member
- Location
- East US, Earth
Thanks Tom for trying to hold back the craziness and name-calling. I'm not a big dynamic fan, but there's no reason behind that condemnation.
Dennis Ryan's article was quite solid--yes that was a typo, surprising to see re a standard in tci mag--but his bias was made clear by his straying into aesthetics, which is not a scientific topic. His lack of experience with dynamic systems was obvious. The citation of the Sherrill catalog's included fork-> static verbiage (with which i generally agree) was interesting--same wording in 2011--hmmmm
I'm told that Dennis chaired the A300 subgroup on support before retiring. His advocacy of READING AND FOLLOWING A300 is excellent. Things are going to change--look for the public review draft version that will come out in a month or so. Experienced practitioners please participate!
Gotta say, that root-pruning article on page 7 was horrible. Why would they print such trash?
Ed, good golly, I thought we were talking about bad inclusions on branches, not cutting slits between trunks! This is clearly a technology in progress. Considering all the crappy ashes and maples in nurseries these days, some research on it should be doable.
Dennis Ryan's article was quite solid--yes that was a typo, surprising to see re a standard in tci mag--but his bias was made clear by his straying into aesthetics, which is not a scientific topic. His lack of experience with dynamic systems was obvious. The citation of the Sherrill catalog's included fork-> static verbiage (with which i generally agree) was interesting--same wording in 2011--hmmmm
I'm told that Dennis chaired the A300 subgroup on support before retiring. His advocacy of READING AND FOLLOWING A300 is excellent. Things are going to change--look for the public review draft version that will come out in a month or so. Experienced practitioners please participate!
Gotta say, that root-pruning article on page 7 was horrible. Why would they print such trash?
Ed, good golly, I thought we were talking about bad inclusions on branches, not cutting slits between trunks! This is clearly a technology in progress. Considering all the crappy ashes and maples in nurseries these days, some research on it should be doable.
- Location
- Victoria, BC, CAD
Good discussion. I had the chance to see some test subjects recently and the results altered my understanding of how Cobra functions in a static configuration. That being that it clearly becomes a girdling weapon quickly when installed under tension.
I feel it's a good product that has many applications, but perhaps not quite as versatile as advertised.
I feel it's a good product that has many applications, but perhaps not quite as versatile as advertised.
- Location
- Retired in Minneapolis
Any dynamic system will girdle if it's installed under tension. I don't recall anything in the Cobra instructions about having it installed tight...maybe I need toreview them.
Ryan... are the tests available to the public? Who did the testing? I'd like to see what was tested. There was some 'testing' done a few years ago that were setup to test Cobra in a way that it was never meant to be used. The 'tests' made the product look bad. I'm upset, to be kind, when these sort of 'tests' are done by supposedly reputable researchers. Then they have the guts to say that the product failed.
Uh...if I tried to pull this:
http://www.banditchippers.com/index.php?...&modelId=18
With this:
http://images.thecarconnection.com/sml/2...100289337_s.jpg
and the clutch or brakes failed would I get away with condemning Ford for not making a truck big enough to haul the chipper? Uh...nooooooooo!
Ryan... are the tests available to the public? Who did the testing? I'd like to see what was tested. There was some 'testing' done a few years ago that were setup to test Cobra in a way that it was never meant to be used. The 'tests' made the product look bad. I'm upset, to be kind, when these sort of 'tests' are done by supposedly reputable researchers. Then they have the guts to say that the product failed.
Uh...if I tried to pull this:
http://www.banditchippers.com/index.php?...&modelId=18
With this:
http://images.thecarconnection.com/sml/2...100289337_s.jpg
and the clutch or brakes failed would I get away with condemning Ford for not making a truck big enough to haul the chipper? Uh...nooooooooo!
[ QUOTE ]
Ed, good golly, I thought we were talking about bad inclusions on branches, not cutting slits between trunks!
[/ QUOTE ]
With permission from the landowner I cut several examples of included attachments on multiple specie. Some seriously included and some not. There does not seem to be any real precedence out there so I had to also experiment with different tools and depths/widths of wound. I saw no reason not to experiment on that bifurcated maple.
Ed, good golly, I thought we were talking about bad inclusions on branches, not cutting slits between trunks!
[/ QUOTE ]
With permission from the landowner I cut several examples of included attachments on multiple specie. Some seriously included and some not. There does not seem to be any real precedence out there so I had to also experiment with different tools and depths/widths of wound. I saw no reason not to experiment on that bifurcated maple.
9. Are there tree species that have two terminal buds? I have not seen any in my travels so far though I am sure somewhere they occur - big planet. How does co-dominance form? This sounds like a naive question or even a stupid question. Thought should be given to this. For example - king of co-dominance - Bradford pear < insert boos here or phrase that goes something like "it has weak wood" > 98% of failures occur at 4 feet-ish. Why is there co-dominance there? Co-dominance does not occur much on the naturally growing, undamaged, unmodified branches of a Bradford. Why at 4 feet? Annecdotally - sounds like a convenient height to prune a whip to make a bushier tree.
I am reading and researching the controls of growth now... Challenging my understanding. The adaption of a woody plant is relevant. The long term result of our interventions are also relevant and largely not described in literature. 10 years is only about ___ % of the lifespan of a tree?
The industry standards are important criteria! Shame they aren't followed by everyone OR enforced by the agents that create them. The longer I am in business the more bitter I become about the lack of adherance to the standards and also the lack of enforcement.
IMO, MY OPINION ONLY, some of those criteria are based on bad science or annectdotal evidence. Having attended a standards meeting, the basis for creating the standards occasionally can be driven by personal agendas and beliefs not necessarily on a fact that has drawn its existence from reproducable scientific investigation.
Before attacking that last statement, remember opinions are like ____, everybody has one.
Just a guy that wants to be SURE what I sell or advise a client is in the best interest of the tree and therefore the client. Even though I should probably approach the situation to be SURE what I sell or advise is in the best interest of the client and therefore the tree. Not exclusive of one another, but the routes and conclusions are sometimes different. Trees aren't litigious.
I am reading and researching the controls of growth now... Challenging my understanding. The adaption of a woody plant is relevant. The long term result of our interventions are also relevant and largely not described in literature. 10 years is only about ___ % of the lifespan of a tree?
The industry standards are important criteria! Shame they aren't followed by everyone OR enforced by the agents that create them. The longer I am in business the more bitter I become about the lack of adherance to the standards and also the lack of enforcement.
IMO, MY OPINION ONLY, some of those criteria are based on bad science or annectdotal evidence. Having attended a standards meeting, the basis for creating the standards occasionally can be driven by personal agendas and beliefs not necessarily on a fact that has drawn its existence from reproducable scientific investigation.
Before attacking that last statement, remember opinions are like ____, everybody has one.
Just a guy that wants to be SURE what I sell or advise a client is in the best interest of the tree and therefore the client. Even though I should probably approach the situation to be SURE what I sell or advise is in the best interest of the client and therefore the tree. Not exclusive of one another, but the routes and conclusions are sometimes different. Trees aren't litigious.
Some of you guys really crack me up!
Aesthetics has no bearings in our industry? Lol. Oh really?
Topping has no relation to pollarding? Lol. Oh really?
Cobra being rated to take thousands and thousands of pounds of line tension yet will not girdle a branch when that amount of tension is actually applied to the line? Lol. Try that on an Alnus rhombifolia and see what happens!
Abtasive wear on a synthetic line by a fallen limb in the wind does not compromise that line's integrity? Lol. Just try it sometime!
Fire compromising a synthetic line in very short order is not a disqualifier for the Cobra system? Lol. Just try it sometime!
If the ANSI 300 standards committee doesn't have enough common sense to distinguish the difference between hardwood trees and softwood trees when it comes to J lag anchoring of cables that will be subjected to thousands of pounds of line tension? then they too are quacks and snake oil salesman, whose day in a court of law looking like idiots is fast approaching!
Bunch of certified quacks.
jomoco
Aesthetics has no bearings in our industry? Lol. Oh really?
Topping has no relation to pollarding? Lol. Oh really?
Cobra being rated to take thousands and thousands of pounds of line tension yet will not girdle a branch when that amount of tension is actually applied to the line? Lol. Try that on an Alnus rhombifolia and see what happens!
Abtasive wear on a synthetic line by a fallen limb in the wind does not compromise that line's integrity? Lol. Just try it sometime!
Fire compromising a synthetic line in very short order is not a disqualifier for the Cobra system? Lol. Just try it sometime!
If the ANSI 300 standards committee doesn't have enough common sense to distinguish the difference between hardwood trees and softwood trees when it comes to J lag anchoring of cables that will be subjected to thousands of pounds of line tension? then they too are quacks and snake oil salesman, whose day in a court of law looking like idiots is fast approaching!
Bunch of certified quacks.
jomoco
- Location
- Retired in Minneapolis
When has fire EVER been a criteria for tree survival? If they do, especially urban trees, they're lucky. In a rural setting...well...whole different issue.
You're the one who made the jump from my self-depricating comment about my Evil Tom days of topping. Make a new thread if you want to discuss the differences between topping and pollarding.
Where did anyone EVER say that aesthetics has 'no bearing'? Life isn't based on single eliminators. How does stridency work? Poking holes in trees wounds them...so does pruning. Does that stop us? Rhetorical question, I already know the answer.
Instead of jumping around changing the topic and avoiding answers, take a minute and answer my questions.
What you're expecting from cabling, static or dynamic, is much different than what I expect. This sort of thing falls into what I call 'The Snowshoe Effect'. Even if someone has never been in waist deep snow they can understand the value of having more support. More support means easier movement...snowshoes or cabling systems. Simple concept. I'll grab my six foot long Michigan showshoes and you get your boots...lets head out into some powder!
You're the one who made the jump from my self-depricating comment about my Evil Tom days of topping. Make a new thread if you want to discuss the differences between topping and pollarding.
Where did anyone EVER say that aesthetics has 'no bearing'? Life isn't based on single eliminators. How does stridency work? Poking holes in trees wounds them...so does pruning. Does that stop us? Rhetorical question, I already know the answer.
Instead of jumping around changing the topic and avoiding answers, take a minute and answer my questions.
What you're expecting from cabling, static or dynamic, is much different than what I expect. This sort of thing falls into what I call 'The Snowshoe Effect'. Even if someone has never been in waist deep snow they can understand the value of having more support. More support means easier movement...snowshoes or cabling systems. Simple concept. I'll grab my six foot long Michigan showshoes and you get your boots...lets head out into some powder!
The point I'm trying to drive home here is that the disqualifiers I've listed for the Cobra system's usage, do not apply to traditional steel cables and anchorage systems to anywhere close to the same degree Tom. And I suspect, and hope you know that.
I brought the matter of the ANSI A300's shortcomings about J lag usage in softwoods to Bob Rouse's attention years and years ago, and he shrugged it off. Hence my extreme scepticism of the ANSI A300 committee's ability to apply common sense to their standards, even after being politely informed of their shortcomings by a hands on practitioner of cabling with decades of experience installing cables and bracing.
jomoco
I brought the matter of the ANSI A300's shortcomings about J lag usage in softwoods to Bob Rouse's attention years and years ago, and he shrugged it off. Hence my extreme scepticism of the ANSI A300 committee's ability to apply common sense to their standards, even after being politely informed of their shortcomings by a hands on practitioner of cabling with decades of experience installing cables and bracing.
jomoco
- Location
- Retired in Minneapolis
But...steel cables can NOT be used in a dynamic solution, that's where you and aren't finding common ground.
Dynamic
Static
Hybrid
All different demands and solutions. Go back and think about my Ranger pickup hauling the double axle chipper metaphor.
Dynamic
Static
Hybrid
All different demands and solutions. Go back and think about my Ranger pickup hauling the double axle chipper metaphor.
Ever hear of an inline compression spring Tom?
Utility companies have been using them longer than I've been alive my friend.
Even if the spring fails, the line will only lengthen X amount of inches before stopping, then holding the cable to it's rated capacity.
jomoco
Utility companies have been using them longer than I've been alive my friend.
Even if the spring fails, the line will only lengthen X amount of inches before stopping, then holding the cable to it's rated capacity.
jomoco
- Location
- Retired in Minneapolis
Sure..seen them. You still have to poke a hole in the tree.
A little hole in the tree is far less damaging to it than girdling it to death Tom. That's been known for over a century.
jomoco
jomoco
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KBNest -Midline Attachable SRS Canopy Anchor.
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