Double-Tied when Spurring Conifers

[beastmaster]

The prime contractor on our job requires we climb with both a lanyard and a choked friction saver around the tree at all times. The reason being that at any time we could descend immediately.
Not two lines or some type of choked line but a friction saver. On smaller trees, less then 40 dbh it's doable, though a pain, but on bigger trees very difficult to say the lest.
These are dead bug trees all conifers. I climbed for years using a gree gree on my climbing line and would choke the tree while taking a top , chunking, or rigging. This new requirement I feel does little to in prove safety and hurts production.
Whipping up a big bulky friction saver isn't easy or smooth. I wish I could us two lanyards or some other system.

 

[oceans]

The prime contractor on our job requires we climb with both a lanyard and a choked friction saver around the tree at all times. The reason being that at any time we could descend immediately.
Not two lines or some type of choked line but a friction saver. On smaller trees, less then 40 dbh it's doable, though a pain, but on bigger trees very difficult to say the lest.
These are dead bug trees all conifers. I climbed for years using a gree gree on my climbing line and would choke the tree while taking a top , chunking, or rigging. This new requirement I feel does little to in prove safety and hurts production.
Whipping up a big bulky friction saver isn't easy or smooth. I wish I could us two lanyards or some other system.

This is a great post. Do you have the option to go back to a Choked SRT System, or is the FS a requirement due to DdRT being a requirement?

A rope/hitch based FS can be easier to manipulate than the thick webbing style FS's in some cases, but either way, to loosen a FS for advancement immediately reduces the ability to descent without dressing the system. You know this, of course, so I guess I'm just blabbing at this point. That, or feeling your pain.

 

[lonniels]

I tend to always use a choked SRT system, but when I am using a Ddrt system with a friction saver I use the Sirius Multianchor and add a Dmm revolver to the end ring. I also add a ring prussik to the system for adjustability, this way your Ddrt system is never unclipped( it stays in the ring prussik). The revolver is advanced and re-clipped saving some time in set-up.

 

[Kris Anderson]

Good thread. Where I work the norm is to ascend on a wire core and limb on the way up. Most of the guys don't even tie in twice thinking the wire core is saw proof or some thing... I've found that the only way to keep up with these guys and remain safe is to choke with a biner SRT and clip in and unclip at every point where you will make a cut. I have done a few removals with a high line set from the ground and prefer that method but I suck with a throwball and these big gangly ponderosa pines I find myself in make it hard to hit a high crotch.

 

[CutHighnLetFly]

Lanyard in combo with climbing line and bulldog bone set up as a lanyard. Once im topping it out, I make a long tail on my cinched anchors for retrieval. I make it the length of the logs I'm gunna cut. So simple. Same can be done double rope, just use a munter hitch with your climbing hitch to come down slowly on the stem

 

[RajElectric]

HH with a steel biner on spliced end of climb line. Flip both that and lanyard at same time when spiking up. Suitable stub will hold the HH line as a DdRT life line when cutting. No stub, choke SRT below lanyard. Easy passing limbs if needed with the HH as a lanyard.

 

[Kris Anderson]

Lanyard in combo with climbing line and bulldog bone set up as a lanyard. Once im topping it out, I make a long tail on my cinched anchors for retrieval. I make it the length of the logs I'm gunna cut. So simple. Same can be done double rope, just use a munter hitch with your climbing hitch to come down slowly on the stem

where do you run a munter in this set up? Under the hitch and into a spare biner attached to the bridge or hitch climber pulley?

 

[Reg]

I like to use two steel core lanyards on my way up. They tend to advance up together pretty nicely. Before taking the top I will set my climb line choked off below my steel core. On my way down I just unclip and 're-choke below my steel core for each cut.

If you're not limb walking not rigging the tree, then this is the way to go....although I personally set the second flipline to the Centre D.....prevents the clutter, and the climbline on my back, or bagged up even. Pre- setting lines seems pointless. You can otherwise be half way up the tree. The more you do, the better conditioned you become.

If you are required to have an escape route in place, like was mentioned earlier about the DdRT with friction saver below the flipline....then I think a choked SRT system would be smarter. Because, you're not going to run out of rope so easy, nor does it matter if the tail of the rope is trapped at the bottom if the tree. I heard a story once about a climber in Australia hitting a wasps nest....but he couldn't rappell because his rope was buried at the bottom of the tree. Also, when advancing a rope as well as a flipline above 50 ft, the weight of the rope forever pulling down and trying to choke the stem, becomes a nuisance. So, I tend to girth hitch the tail though a carabiner somewhere on my side, which makes the line much easier to advance along with the flipline. Less likely to spur your line that way either.

 

[SomethingWitty]

If you're not limb walking not rigging the tree, then this is the way to go....although I personally set the second flipline to the Centre D.....prevents the clutter, and the climbline on my back, or bagged up even. Pre- setting lines seems pointless. You can otherwise be half way up the tree. The more you do, the better conditioned you become.

If you are required to have an escape route in place, like was mentioned earlier about the DdRT with friction saver below the flipline....then I think a choked SRT system would be smarter. Because, you're not going to run out of rope so easy, nor does it matter if the tail of the rope is trapped at the bottom if the tree. I heard a story once about a climber in Australia hitting a wasps nest....but he couldn't rappell because his rope was buried at the bottom of the tree. Also, when advancing a rope as well as a flipline above 50 ft, the weight of the rope forever pulling down and trying to choke the stem, becomes a nuisance. So, I tend to girth hitch the tail though a carabiner somewhere on my side, which makes the line much easier to advance along with the flipline. Less likely to spur your line that way either.

I've seen the kind of trees you take out.
Those are some really tall conifers.
I'm willing to try both of these tricks, especially the girth to keep my rope weight off of my arms.

 

[TreeVB]

If you're not limb walking not rigging the tree, then this is the way to go....although I personally set the second flipline to the Centre D.....prevents the clutter, and the climbline on my back, or bagged up even. Pre- setting lines seems pointless. You can otherwise be half way up the tree. The more you do, the better conditioned you become.

If you are required to have an escape route in place, like was mentioned earlier about the DdRT with friction saver below the flipline....then I think a choked SRT system would be smarter. Because, you're not going to run out of rope so easy, nor does it matter if the tail of the rope is trapped at the bottom if the tree. I heard a story once about a climber in Australia hitting a wasps nest....but he couldn't rappell because his rope was buried at the bottom of the tree. Also, when advancing a rope as well as a flipline above 50 ft, the weight of the rope forever pulling down and trying to choke the stem, becomes a nuisance. So, I tend to girth hitch the tail though a carabiner somewhere on my side, which makes the line much easier to advance along with the flipline. Less likely to spur your line that way either.

My first response was definitely aimed more towards simple, straight forward conifers located in fairly open areas where you can easily "steer" limbs where you need. Anything super close quarters I will double lanyard up to set my set climbline and a sideline, then repell down and work my way back up. I like the idea of using center D for second lanyard and will try that sometime. When you girth hitch your tail to your saddle do you run into the problem of limbs snagging the belly and rattling you a bit?
That would be horrible to be stuck in a tree with your tail snagged just getting stung to pieces! I would probably be a little upset with my groundies for not keeping my line clear

 

[Braeden Court]

I always throw in if possible. But, for conifers I like to climb with my steel-core lanyard. When I am making cuts I choke off my climbing line with a descender (figure-8) on my bridge.

 

[Reg]

My first response was definitely aimed more towards simple, straight forward conifers located in fairly open areas where you can easily "steer" limbs where you need. Anything super close quarters I will double lanyard up to set my set climbline and a sideline, then repell down and work my way back up. I like the idea of using center D for second lanyard and will try that sometime. When you girth hitch your tail to your saddle do you run into the problem of limbs snagging the belly and rattling you a bit?
That would be horrible to be stuck in a tree with your tail snagged just getting stung to pieces! I would probably be a little upset with my groundies for not keeping my line clear

Using the center D for the second flip line is nice because it advances as one with the first flipline, but drops out of the way when your cutting. It's also better in a fall/arrest situation, should you gaff out.

When you girth your climbline to one side, I generally put the carabiner through the side ring where the bridge starts, not right around near the side Ds. So, it's just inches really. If you're cutting careful, then you shouldn't drop stuff on it. Or tuck it under your foot if it seems inevitable.

 

[JeffGu]

I stole a couple of my wife's hair-tie thingies, and if I want the tail end of the climb line or a long lanyard with me, I girth it to the rope and hook it onto the saddle with that. They're strong enough to hold the weight of the rope but will break if you snag up or something drops on the line.

She bought me a bag of them at the dollar store, so I'd quit stealing hers.

 

[LandonPainter]

I have been working on a PG&E contract near Shaver Lake, CA for the last 3 months. They require two systems at all times but haven't specified how to use those systems. On conifer removals that don't involve rigging and are less than 45"DBH, I will just spike up. I climb with an SRT system and Lanyard both clipped into my side D's. The two lines flip very well together. The SRT system is not choked during ascent. If I start to feel nervous or tired, or want to bail, I can always choke the SRT line. Also, I can progress doubled rope no problem. Most often on a no rig tree I will just treat the system like its two lanyards all the way up and down. After a few tall ones my legs got strong and now I even find it to be quite enjoyable. All that said, If I'm rigging or the branches are really big, or the base is huge, I always set a top line SRT.

 

[beastmaster]

I'm assuming you are on the PG&E project up north. The prime contractor on the project will allow climbers to use SRT but they have to meet certain requirements and the equipment used has to be up to certain specifications. If you are in Calaveras county I believe that is T&M and not production based work so have fun and play by the rules. If you need more clarity on SRT systems that would be allowed please talk to one of the NATS instructors on the project or send me a message.

Problem I'm having getting gunapproved to use SRT besides their equipment specific requirements, is as they say,"you can't out climb your rescue climber".
I've been using the RADs system for years. I can meet their guidelines, but in order for me to climb srt, so must my other climber. My other climber has 6 months experience, has no srt experience, and no rescue training.
They require you've been using srt for several years and must pass a skill test. I talk to Nats guys and rarely get a streight answer. It very frustrating.
I've been climbing for longer then most those guys have been alive. I'm a professional. I feel their tying my hands most the time.
I spent a year workink round camp Nelson for Edison . Not as many rules. But it Iis what it is.

 

[beastmaster]

I don't think you guys at shaver lake get as much scrutiny as we do here in west point. Nats is on us all day.

 

[SomethingWitty]

Problem I'm having getting gunapproved to use SRT besides their equipment specific requirements, is as they say,"you can't out climb your rescue climber".
I've been using the RADs system for years. I can meet their guidelines, but in order for me to climb srt, so must my other climber. My other climber has 6 months experience, has no srt experience, and no rescue training.
They require you've been using srt for several years and must pass a skill test. I talk to Nats guys and rarely get a streight answer. It very frustrating.
I've been climbing for longer then most those guys have been alive. I'm a professional. I feel their tying my hands most the time.
I spent a year workink round camp Nelson for Edison . Not as many rules. But it Iis what it is.

Can't outclimb your rescue climber?
That strikes me as odd.
Do they make you pre-set an access line for potential rescues? If not, what difference does it make what level of skill the potential rescuer has?

 

[beastmaster]

Can't outclimb your rescue climber?
That strikes me as odd.
Do they make you pre-set an access line for potential rescues? If not, what difference does it make what level of skill the potential rescuer has?

Yes a Basel based tie in is required. They still require the other climber be fully competent so he understands the system, and could retrieve you if you were dead weight on your system. I not sure know the proper protocol for that kind of rescue. But could figure out something.

 

[cbachmann]

Yes a Basel based tie in is required. They still require the other climber be fully competent so he understands the system, and could retrieve you if you were dead weight on your system. I not sure know the proper protocol for that kind of rescue. But could figure out something.

Interesting situation. I've had a similar point made to be about climbing on a Spiderjack. In essence, using gear that your rescuer isn't knowledgeable about creates a risk. That said, I can understand your frustration.

This year I've been thinking a lot about climbing with rescue in mind. In other words, how do my climbing systems make a rescue easier or more difficult. This has lead me to use more access lines, more basal anchors, do more training with my crews, bring more gear into the backyard on jobs, and carry extra gear on my harness. All of these things done with the rescuer in mind, so that he/she is more likely to get me down safely if something bad happens in the tree.

 

[Tyler Durden]

I still think a basal tie is setting yourself up for an accident. In your scenario of a unresponsive climber, the basal tie does nothing to help the airial rescuer. I am a firm believer in self rescue. A cinched anchor will always allow you to reach the ground.

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