Fairfield
Participating member
- Location
- Bucks County pa USA
Double tie-in point technique
- Thread starter Fairfield
- Start date
Fairfield
Participating member
- Location
- Bucks County pa USA
Forgot to mention that I do apply a second hitch to the other end also.
- Location
- Chapel Hill, NC
That's what they call an 'M rig', right?
Haven't used it myself but it seems cool.
Haven't used it myself but it seems cool.
Norm_Hall
New member
- Location
- Wauconda, (Chicago),IL,USA
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That's what they call an 'M rig', right?
Haven't used it myself but it seems cool.
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No reason for a 2nd hitch. It is great for cabling and returning from long limb walks. Easily retrievable. Definitely worth knowing how to use this technique.
Thanks Mark C.
That's what they call an 'M rig', right?
Haven't used it myself but it seems cool.
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No reason for a 2nd hitch. It is great for cabling and returning from long limb walks. Easily retrievable. Definitely worth knowing how to use this technique.
Thanks Mark C.
- Location
- Phoenix Arizona
So is there enough friction at the tie in points to keep you from dropping to the lowest point in the system?
Seems like a second hitch could give you more side to side control. I glad this came up. I was trying to remember the M.
Seems like a second hitch could give you more side to side control. I glad this came up. I was trying to remember the M.
Cool...I would put a second hitch, if for nothing but to reduce the overall friction...I could envision having to pull like mad to adjust it if the rope was going over branches at either end, and having only one point to adjust from...
With my lightweight I'd probably just end up hoiked higher in the tree than advanced in any one direction!
With my lightweight I'd probably just end up hoiked higher in the tree than advanced in any one direction!
IMO, the M rig is a special situation use only and requires careful consideration before using.
The problem with it is that the whole setup being controlled with one hitch negates the redundancy of a double tie in point and introduces a very large amount of line that allows the whole system to fail if one tie in point fails.
Dave
The problem with it is that the whole setup being controlled with one hitch negates the redundancy of a double tie in point and introduces a very large amount of line that allows the whole system to fail if one tie in point fails.
Dave
- Location
- Retired in Minneapolis
Good point to remember, Dave.
Even with very efficient pulleys in the system there is enough friction to only need one hitch. Using two does make it easier to adjust side to side though.
No matter which setup you use you MUST MUST MUST tie a stopper knot in your rope about eight feet from the end. There is roughly twice the rope in the system so your down-climbing distance is reduced. Coming off the end of the rope is not a fun experience!
Even with very efficient pulleys in the system there is enough friction to only need one hitch. Using two does make it easier to adjust side to side though.
No matter which setup you use you MUST MUST MUST tie a stopper knot in your rope about eight feet from the end. There is roughly twice the rope in the system so your down-climbing distance is reduced. Coming off the end of the rope is not a fun experience!
southsoundtree
Been here much more than a while
- Location
- Olympia, WA
I wouldn't terminate the rope with a bowline. I'd prefer something that traps the biner in a proper end-load situation--half a double fisherman's knot (for lack of a proper name coming to mind) is what I use, or a buntline (I believe) is what one of my climbers uses.
M-rig is specialty and can be useful when used with the right situation. Be aware of the warning in posts above, and use a lanyard when cutting, as this double-crotching is still
You can have some of the same benefits by using setting the one tie on one end of the rope, and using the other end of the rope with a hitch to set a second, independent tie-in.
This will give you more side to side control for keeping you in position, but will take more work to move than an M-rig.
M-rig is specialty and can be useful when used with the right situation. Be aware of the warning in posts above, and use a lanyard when cutting, as this double-crotching is still
You can have some of the same benefits by using setting the one tie on one end of the rope, and using the other end of the rope with a hitch to set a second, independent tie-in.
This will give you more side to side control for keeping you in position, but will take more work to move than an M-rig.
the m is fantastic for just about anytime more stability is needed. a retrievable redirect is recommended; remember if you apply a load mid line between to anchors you are multiplying the load on both anchors if you increase the load you also increase friction i've found myself fighting for slack on long triangulated limb walks sometimes it's just better to call for another climbing line or pull your tail up. the m shines when used to triangulate yourself for a short distance or to traverse back toward your tip as in cabling or pruning a large multi stem.
Fairfield
Participating member
- Location
- Bucks County pa USA
When I use the M I always prefer to have two hitches due to the side to side movement, also if I am using this setup I have in mind that eather, one of the crotches has a good chance (above avreage) chance at failur or it is going to be one hell of a swing back to where I started. For safty reasons I would not use only the one hitch. Also good point about using your lanyard when cutting, that always seems to be left out of conversation when talkig about this.
- Location
- CT
i dont use the hitch climber when i double tie. i just pull up my tail and use that end of the rope, its two separate systems at that point. get a lot of control out of it and your remaining rope is a "U" so u dont need a stopper knot. there is more gear when done this way, but i feel like i can control the system more precisely
- Location
- Retired in Minneapolis
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... if I am using this setup I have in mind that eather, one of the crotches has a good chance (above avreage) chance at failur or it is going to be one hell of a swing back to where I started.
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Better yet, don't use that TIP. Build your climbing system on a strong TIP not a strong rope.
... if I am using this setup I have in mind that eather, one of the crotches has a good chance (above avreage) chance at failur or it is going to be one hell of a swing back to where I started.
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Better yet, don't use that TIP. Build your climbing system on a strong TIP not a strong rope.
Fairfield
Participating member
- Location
- Bucks County pa USA
Tom, I think you missed my point. I never tend on having the mind set that my anchors are always going to be bomber. Yes you are right when you say not to build your system on a strong rope, but lets face it there will be the times that you think it will be ok but you put the second tie in point there just in case. But yes I do agree with you.
fairfield do you climb everyday? cause with the way you explain things i highly doubt it, not trees anyway. i use the m daily and with the friction applied by the double tie in and my weight i have always been able to position myself where i wanted within reason and like with any work stance safety off so you can use two hands.
southsoundtree
Been here much more than a while
- Location
- Olympia, WA
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i use the m daily and with the friction applied by the double tie in and my weight i have always been able to position myself where i wanted within reason and like with any work stance safety off so you can use two hands.
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FTR, I've never used the M-rig personally, an my experience of double crotching in the same tree is very limited. More use has come from double crotching in a solid lifeline tree, and a sketchy tree for work positioning or transfering tree to tree.
Jeff,
for informational purposes, are you using ring-and-ring-type friction savers with/ without a pulley, natural crotching, rope guides...
What is your weight? Typical? Larger than average, smaller than average?
i use the m daily and with the friction applied by the double tie in and my weight i have always been able to position myself where i wanted within reason and like with any work stance safety off so you can use two hands.
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FTR, I've never used the M-rig personally, an my experience of double crotching in the same tree is very limited. More use has come from double crotching in a solid lifeline tree, and a sketchy tree for work positioning or transfering tree to tree.
Jeff,
for informational purposes, are you using ring-and-ring-type friction savers with/ without a pulley, natural crotching, rope guides...
What is your weight? Typical? Larger than average, smaller than average?
southsoundtree
Been here much more than a while
- Location
- Olympia, WA
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a rope guide and a retrievable redirect that consist of a petzle fixe and a carabiner. i weigh 220lbs, 6'1", thick dark hair, light blue eyes, big beard, and i've been told my southern accent is very charming.
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I figure those things would factor into the system.
What are you doing daily when you use these? Pruning wide, spreading trees?
You left out your zodiac sign.
a rope guide and a retrievable redirect that consist of a petzle fixe and a carabiner. i weigh 220lbs, 6'1", thick dark hair, light blue eyes, big beard, and i've been told my southern accent is very charming.
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I figure those things would factor into the system.
What are you doing daily when you use these? Pruning wide, spreading trees?
You left out your zodiac sign.
Fairfield
Participating member
- Location
- Bucks County pa USA
Jeff, not sure how to answer that.... Well, I will say that my thoughts behind "my" M rig having two hitches is for personal comfort. I like to be able to control each side independently of each other. If this is not the manner that you personaly like that in no way makes it wrong, just not your way. If a climber desided to have one hitch or one hundered hitches on there climb who cares as long as that person feels safe and there objective is done. Im sure there are alot of people that climb trees everyday that dont use the M-rig and possably never have. You on the other hand state you use it everyday, does that mean you are doing something wrong? I would say no, it's your personal style.I would hope that noone would attack you for it though.
yep large shade tree pruning is what i do most. i mostly use the m as a triangulator to use in conjunction with my lanyard to balance my big butt while pruning tip dead. 220 standing on twigs gets kinda freaky sometimes. (i wish i could type tone) i'm a virgo by the way. lmao
fairfield how can you call that your m? i guess you must have helped chris and beddes design the hitchclimber. as far as climbing on a bunk tie in; well i think it just says everything without stating it. cause if your the slightest bit worried that your tip won't hold then you need to make one that will. furthermore aren't you the guy ziplining himself over single phase (after you got called on it) that turned into house drops?
fairfield how can you call that your m? i guess you must have helped chris and beddes design the hitchclimber. as far as climbing on a bunk tie in; well i think it just says everything without stating it. cause if your the slightest bit worried that your tip won't hold then you need to make one that will. furthermore aren't you the guy ziplining himself over single phase (after you got called on it) that turned into house drops?
