Double Braid Splice: Toss vs. Samson

chris_girard

chris_girard

Branched out member
Location
Gilmanton, N.H.
Have any of you guys noticed that Brion Toss' method of burying an eye splice seems to be shorter than what Samson shows in their splicing manual?

I want to go through and measure the lengths to be sure that I'm not missing something, but it does seem shorter to me.

I first learned how to splice 3 strand from Brion Toss' methods and they were very easy to follow. The double braid method seems pretty easy too, but I learned from Octavious' workshop last week how to splice double braid by the Samson way.
 
Unless it has changed recently, the Toss method measures (buries) 24x diameter. Samson and others bury 21x diameter. That is to say: a full fid = 21x dia, long fid = 14x dia, short fid = 7x dia. Toss uses more material, but perhaps most of this excess is removed from the tails of cover and core after tapering and bury are complete. I've never compared the two against actual buried material in the splice.
 
Chris- toss's way has a longer bury. If you're reading it as being shorter, then you're looking at something wrong. Does TLHamel's explanation jive with what you're thinking?

love
nick
 
I will have to take a closer look to see what I'm missing, but I see what TLHamel is saying.

Has anyone tested the two methods in a test to see which one is stronger? Which method would you recommend, probably its an individual preference.
 
I prefer Toss's method simply because it's easier for me to remember and it's easier for me to explain to other people. I've done both many times and they are just about identical. The differences are subtle.

Which is stronger? I bet they come in the same.

love
nick
 
Thanks Nick and TL. Just a few more questions. Do you think the stitching of the crossover should be used with the Samson method like Toss uses, does it help that much? Do you stitch through both the cover and core for the full length of the yarn that was pulled out?

Hey Nick, I love your website! Are you going to be doing more dvd's?
 
Are you talking about the first stitching to keep the cover and core from slipping while you finish the splice, or the final stitching to secure the finished splice?

I highly recommend doing the first one while you're learning. Eventually you'll learn that it is not necessary and can be avoided to save a minute or two.

The final stitching: it is imperative that you do some sort of stitching here- whether it be a full on whipping, lock stitch, or anything...just as long as the splice can't come apart if it gets pulled on wrong.

I hope to do more vids...only time will tell.

love
nick
 
Sorry Nick, yes I'm talking about the first stitching to keep the cover and core from slipping while finishing the splice. Thanks for the info.

I did find out about the measurements that I thought were wrong with the Toss method. It looks to me like there is a typo error in the 1998 edition of Brion Toss' book The Rigger's Apprentice. On page 102 it says that when you tuck the core for the double braid eye spice, you slide along between the core and cover for 14 rope diameters.

But on page 104, it shows a drawing and says to use 4 ROPE DIAMETERS! This is why I thought the core wasn't burried as far as Samson says in their manual.

If any of you guys have this book, check out the section that I'm talking about and see if it is what I'm missing?
 
I just looked, and sure enough, there's a small, but rather important typo!

I'm guessing that seeing as how the book is a decade old now, Brion already has found this one, but it might be worth emailing him about it, just in case!

love
nick
 
Hey Nick, I checked Brion's website where his wife Christian has posted his splicing methods and it shows the 14 rope dia(not 4 dia) so I'm sure he's aware it it, but I will email him just in case!

I spoke with Christian last week and she said that Brion had to go in for surgery on his ankle so he probably won't be in the shop this week.
 
I've noticed that tachyon is made of a different type of fiber that is not as slippery as what other ropes are made of. It seems to hold itself together well while in those middle stages of the splice.

love
nick
 
So when you guys do stitch the crossover, do you use a different thread or do you pull a strand out of either the cover or core end as Toss shows?

Does it matter either way?
 
I use a different piece of thread. I think toss used to show (maybe still does) to pull a piece of the core for stitching- but the core strands are usually very thick. I find it easier to just use a piece of scrap whipping twine.

love
nick
 
The Toss instructions that I used to have said to use a cover strand. I'm pretty sure they said to pull a cover strand out right at the taper mark/crossover, don't cut it and use that to stitch the crossover together.
 
If you stitch the crossover, you can compact the crossover and make it easier to bury. I don't do it anymore, even for tachyon. Keeping tension on the eye side of the crossover seems to do the trick better than enything.
 
[ QUOTE ]
If you stitch the crossover, you can compact the crossover and make it easier to bury. I don't do it anymore, even for tachyon. Keeping tension on the eye side of the crossover seems to do the trick better than enything.

[/ QUOTE ]

Sometimes it seems that if I did a great job stitching it made it hardER to run it home because you had a compact, but TIGHT (non malleable) section to bury. When it's soft, it seems to settle in smoother.

I might just be imagining it though. That's very likely.

love
nick
 
That's sometimes true...that's one reason why I don't do it anymore. I also suspect that anytime you compress any part of a splice (or any rope, for that matter) you are probably going to weaken that part. More friction=heat=quicker failure.
 
What about Samson’s and Toss’ suggestion of attaching a small line to the braided core at the crossover and then mechanically applying tension to reduce the diameter of the core and crossover to make the burying process easier?

Do any of you guys use this technique?
 
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