Documenting my hand-sewn eye process

TheTreeSpyder

Well-Known Member
Location
Florida>>> USA
Previously spoke w/o reading whole 40 pages of generous input, but maintain the model stated. Especially seeing Yoyo man and others say it first.. Many good tips etc. Brocky thumbtack trick very simply, cleanly ingenious. Thank-you Moss et al for a very illuminating ride of many reflections!
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Bonner's concerns point at some things etc. To differentiate a splice would get frictions all around inside a shrinking 'tube', then stitched and many more made and can be machined away from human f'ups. Totally different than 1 side frictions, no shrink around and stitch by hand that quite possibly a teenager in a rush might try, even gift to someone...
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My interest academic and safety only a sprinkle of self sufficiency. i think that the frictions/adhesion is the property to watch, 5# added thread strength a secondary concern for when it all hits the fan/threads pulled diagonally as the friction mating hookup is surpassed and eye goes to backup strategy. A way to test the theories i think would be to make lesser splices instead of better for testing for built in headroom and to prove theory. Like if usually throw 100 stitches in, try 30 and test. If that even comes close to acceptable, would seem bringing back to 100 stitches very confidently and go on. Kinda a reverse strategy to same point, round world view. 100 stitch count not total focus, the linear length of the 'tacking surfaces' is how frictions are compounded.
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My knot view of Hitch terminations and Bend couplings are that they are external linear force fed into arc control(Binding is internal radial force to same arc controls w/o linear to radial conversion). The first, Primary Arc whether 90 or 180 forms a hook to the preceding linear/Standing Part in Hitches and Bends. Rest of knot is to keep this hook aligned in place on host hook keeps load connected. By that model, after the hook in this 'hand sewn eye process' is the frictions tacking to side, and some lil'baby shelves of texture catching on each other as long as this stays in position, the hook is good,. This is dependent on the frictions imposed by the thread mating the surfaces tightly, on a linear run the frictions will compound by distance of contact so that is factor, so is the slickness of the materials and their manufacture/braid. The way the braid catches itself or not might surprise in a different kind of rope handled same. And the slickness of the material used then of course too. So this would still be more towards select fire not shotgun all across everything with claims of what works.
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Clear coat would help keep this simple alignment, keep colors brightest for most dramatic inspection, protect threads and keep grit out from working it's way inside to work on cutting fibers unseen from the inside. This would seem more like a buried splice concern, but is additive here that get with the protection of the sheathing. Cleaning carpets makes them last longer, as sand model is 18 cutting surfaces per uncrushable grains deep in carpet powered by people walking back and forth etc. silently destroying carpet from inside.
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The warnings on the threads getting slanted under load is what i envisioned. This would be the place where raw tensile of thread x numbers of threads is more of an argument necessity. This would also be the time when would want thread more matching the host material so neither had the advantage to cut the other etc. Similar to Square Knot needing matching materials for even fight to maintain Square-ness. Otherwise, in normal use, the threads sitting 90 degrees to rest of rope are just for the side adhesions/frictions . Thus still feel some non stiff, non destructive glue could help on that facing. ABoK talks of putting fresh varnish on mast area and then knotting on that for extra tack in the lengthwise pull chapter (which this is), other ways were to use wood ashes, best he recommends is cut open inner tube to use thin rubber to alter the CoFs Co-efficient of Friction of the mated surfaces.
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So i maintain my fender washer model, for hanging sheet vertical. Pinch with bolts across, but held in place by frictions of fender pinches invoked by bolts. Don't want it so much hanging on bolts, and in use the holes elongating or any wear as a safety flag not carrying on simple frictions and stressing across the bolt minimal not maximum size dimension. The fender washers spread stress to wider area while using bolt force properly, even tho not aligned to the load force but across. The best strength of the thread is pulling along it's length across eye, to then leverage the frictions into holding eye. Not eye losing these frictional catches and actually pulling across threads where they have to slant trying to hold on by aligning with the force pull of rope as can as a last bailout resort before failing.
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Too small an eye could get spread by host against the first thread 'tack'. Longer with preceding tack, space, then real list of stitches kept safe from spread by tack riding point could be improvement. As first position to slant, perhaps this could be softer thread, less cutting primary type model if slants. Eye long enough to Girth/Choke to carabiner would take some strength concerns off stitching and realign concerns to bend against the Standing Parts of eye, and this should not be stiff if going this route. Rigidity invokes leveraged length, loaded soft parts will already give this, thus efficiency/cosine loss. Stiffer/stiffened material will emphasize this.
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Sorry had to get that out, even tho not my game. Carry on muchachos, am making popcorn to watch!
 
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moss

Well-Known Member
The fender washer join is a good way to describe your point.

Looking at this from an even bigger view, it’s all about sewn eyes made by any means, by machine or by hand. The original point of this thread is that machine sewn eyes are accepted as safe for climbers to hang their lives on and that it’s possible to make a very strong eye sewing by hand.

In regard to shrink tubing or coatings to protect the stitching from abrasion and grit... the reality is that the cordage will wear out before grit or exterior abrasion compromises the thread. We beat on our ropes much harder than we do the stitching on sewn eyes.

I still like to put shrink tube over my stitching but in the cases where it is problematic to do so, like in my sewn harness bridges, I’m seeing no degradation of the thread before the cordage is retired.
-AJ
 
Which brings me to something I've been wondering for a while - does anyone have a list (or should we start one) of all the break test facilities/ contractors that are available? Maybe sorted by country or something.
There's apparently an older Treebuzz 2009 thread on this:

As of Dec 2020, what I found was:

Wisconsin, USA

Greensboro, N Carolina

Vancouver, BC, Canada

If anyone knows of addtional locations please post.
 

TheTreeSpyder

Well-Known Member
Location
Florida>>> USA
Great topic into roots of commanding rope to greatest bidding, after a single turn, w/practical; fullest test application..
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Still, in ABoK many reference examples of around both parts of each leg of eye circumference/rather than thru close side of each:
That tend to favor tiered series of series of turns
>> w/break between series-es(!)
To my (a)typical modeling; as like air buffer/thermal break in insulation
>>so force not just run 1 continuous degrading gauntlet,
>>but then once devastated faces another, but is softening by self equalizing in between
and even perhaps woven in as shift/creep check!
>>cable 3 or more such spaced grabs typical, in higher friction broader surface, Natural ropes Ashley shows 5 series.
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In all my understandings collectively from ABoK shows better to seized in spaced Half Hitch etc. as stopper/final ballast/tailer main in capstan speak, then allow the same stopper construction to (in my terms) 'ram the mainframe/carriage' of the preceding knot to deform from the rear as fight same of not deforming on input. Seems favorable to be a spaced maintainer of the rear part of the knot main carriage shape, not deformer/rammer. Carriage being machine between Standing Part linear input and final tailer man/ballast of Nip etc. The less self contained final size, is more buffered from deforming squareness of carriage from rear aspect. Carriage is also a leveraged friction buffer between the input (load) and output(tailer man/ballast)



ABoK is massive book has unique layout of overly massive subject (to me, as workman that means 'frilly' knots thrown in as distracting bloat:muyenojado: ). But opens and closes with generals as builds to specifics in center. Hard not to get caught up in how many can tie as knots flood by, while tying them trying to extract pivotal principles that still carry on into today and further into many things. Folks then were forced to be more in touch with forces more rawly, which few disciplines carry forward so fully as ours.
 

moss

Well-Known Member
Great topic into roots of commanding rope to greatest bidding, after a single turn, w/practical; fullest test application..
.
Still, in ABoK many reference examples of around both parts of each leg of eye circumference/rather than thru close side of each:
That tend to favor tiered series of series of turns
>> w/break between series-es(!)
To my (a)typical modeling; as like air buffer/thermal break in insulation
>>so force not just run 1 continuous degrading gauntlet,
>>but then once devastated faces another, but is softening by self equalizing in between
and even perhaps woven in as shift/creep check!
>>cable 3 or more such spaced grabs typical, in higher friction broader surface, Natural ropes Ashley shows 5 series.
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In all my understandings collectively from ABoK shows better to seized in spaced Half Hitch etc. as stopper/final ballast/tailer main in capstan speak, then allow the same stopper construction to (in my terms) 'ram the mainframe/carriage' of the preceding knot to deform from the rear as fight same of not deforming on input. Seems favorable to be a spaced maintainer of the rear part of the knot main carriage shape, not deformer/rammer. Carriage being machine between Standing Part linear input and final tailer man/ballast of Nip etc. The less self contained final size, is more buffered from deforming squareness of carriage from rear aspect. Carriage is also a leveraged friction buffer between the input (load) and output(tailer man/ballast)



ABoK is massive book has unique layout of overly massive subject (to me, as workman that means 'frilly' knots thrown in as distracting bloat:muyenojado: ). But opens and closes with generals as builds to specifics in center. Hard not to get caught up in how many can tie as knots flood by, while tying them trying to extract pivotal principles that still carry on into today and further into many things. Folks then were forced to be more in touch with forces more rawly, which few disciplines carry forward so fully as ours.
I need a translator for many of your more technical sentences but the last paragraph and the last sentence are music to my ears, no translation required.
-AJ
 
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dspacio

Active Member
Location
Narragansett Bay
ABoK is massive book has unique layout of overly massive subject (to me, as workman that means 'frilly' knots thrown in as distracting bloat:muyenojado: ). But opens and closes with generals as builds to specifics in center. Hard not to get caught up in how many can tie as knots flood by, while tying them trying to extract pivotal principles that still carry on into today and further into many things. Folks then were forced to be more in touch with forces more rawly, which few disciplines carry forward so fully as ours.

I have the same experience with that book. It is cumbersome if one is looking for a specific knot, but the massive barrage of potential knot constructions conveys general principles of what makes a knot hold, what lets it release, etc.
For those times when tying something down, etc. tying knots on the fly, no idea what their names are, just simply understanding what feels tight, what can grab, and what directional forces one is working against.
 

TheTreeSpyder

Well-Known Member
Location
Florida>>> USA
Most folks say ABoK knot #, and self too for specific references.
But mostly like saying ABoK lesson#....
Like Lesson#1669. "The FIGURE-EIGHT HITCH and Round Turn. If the rope is weak and the hoist is heavy, a Round Tum on the standing part adds materially to the strength of the knot."
Is TOTALLY about the Round Turn(RT) around Standing Part(SPart) to me, and to carry that principle to other forms. The fig.8 Hitch reference is just an example application to me of the RT around SPart principle/knot module seen in other forms. i see a single Turn around SPart as shearing across the sole support ('iBeam') of SPart at 90 degrees worst angle, but giving an RT around SPart instead more grabs along the rope column of SPart like splice than across it. Is better hear in flexible support/rope just as same principle of pulling across a rigid iBeam or along it's length.. EXCEPT in rope the singe Turn around SPart fights tendency to pull away/seat less to host on load side of host, whereby RT around SPart accentuates the pull away from host more for less tight grip on that side of host. knudeNoggin adds that if precede w/RT on host, then RT on SPart, effect about lost; i think too much tension reduction via RT on host, not leaving enough force to grip RT on SPart to pull along it's length, and so becomes more of a shear across SPart for less efficient SPart, but does grab the host tighter in trade. So is trade off of grab tighter to host or leave SPart less deformed as control leg joins load leg(SPart). THAT is why use a fig8 Hitch with it at least, to get the nip up into the higher nip region towards the top apex of the opposing 180arc on opposite side of host than load, for a Half Hitch position is the worst nip position, and RT around SPart enhances that worst nip effect in trade for 'stronger' more efficient, less deformed SPart...
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This RT study extends to a wider scope in Lesson#1732 "Be certain that the turns are snug before lowering away. There's a lot of virtue in a Round Turn." i find RT has 3x180 arcs of capstan effect tension reduction AND 2dimensional support architecture that single or double arc does not. More arcs add to the friction and 2 dimensional support breadth that 3arcs, Round Turn begins in real working class knots. Single Turn bases being more of a minimal get by of 1 dimensional support construction, just not the same. This inherits to Crossed Turn(cross on host) bases of 3x180 arcs and Backhand Turns (crossing off host) of 3x180 arcs with added frictions.
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There simply is much more than knots in the knots book, wisdoms across the (p)ages of time, the focused knots are many times the examples of principle usages, than the focus themselves to me.
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some of these things easier to sift out, in redundancy; especially when rings the bellmore than once announcing 'double bearing' and then proclaiming several times as of importance to the needed utilities at the time, that double bearing can be had with single pass in Backhand Turn type things. But, sometimes, there is only one fleeting reference to some slim importance that carries much wider than initially stated.. Focusing too much on how many can ya tie, can blur by this part of the more important journey, than the knot destination (type analogy).
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And, yes, DIRECTION is it's own quantity and as important as the tension quantity it self.
 
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dspacio

Active Member
Location
Narragansett Bay
interesting point about how "just adding extra turns and tension" can sometimes not allow the knot to grab where it's needed. allowing the pull of force to travel through the line and knot to cinch where it counts.

I appreciate your insights from the ABoK!
 

TheTreeSpyder

Well-Known Member
Location
Florida>>> USA
i compare this to adding not 1 but 2 Half Hitches(HH) as final ballast to complete/'seal' a knot.
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To me with just 1 single preceding Turn, the 2nd HH is to keep the 1st from pulling out.
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But, same adage applied after a Round Turn(RT), the 2nd HH sometimes seems more so the 1st doesn't fall out sometimes.
As the RT reduces the tension in the 'working end' to such an extent, can be more of a risk of 1st HH falling out, from lack of holding tension.
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In either case follow the adage to be more secure, but sometimes to different function to do so. Adding another rope part/module isn't always to enforce a particular mechanic across the board; but rather avail that part now to the system. That in turn, autonomously can use the added mechanic to particular flavor by Natural selection of system now self maximizing with more usable parts.
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This can also be witnessed, in using the same lacing for different usages/force type fed. If on round host form a Half Knot, Strangle, Constrictor, Bag(fave), Groundline etc. and use as a Hitch, the rope parts load force in 1 fashion as the raw force source is linear input. But, remove load and swell host is now a radial input of force of Round Binding, the same lacing of same rope parts now loads differently, as Nature self maximizes to a different input force type.
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i see these individual rope parts as 3 main players of 0,90,180 degrees directional (horizontal or vertical etc.)end points deflection, making linear/same directional axis(even if bent), cross axis and reverse direction to same axis respectively(in linear force input systems). If rigid parts, these parts would need connecting flexible hinging; body of rope provides this utility. But rope still has essentially separate rope parts that can be used differently on the fly if loaded differently. Just as rigid support chain loaded from side, reverse etc., or even same passive electric parts circuit with the force element ported differently thru; to extrude different effects. All the same lesson, viewed from this larger context, of suddenly rope not mysterious but amazingly consistent to what already know. Parts and positions don't dictate outcome, but rather how the force uses and ports thru the offered parts, dictates outcome. Thus follow the force to decode, as a detective follows the money(force) thru the bit parts.
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....sorry for the interruption; we now return you to the safety of normal thinking peoples...
 
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