Documenting my hand-sewn eye process

[moss]

Ill keep saying it, stitching isnt like splicing. It also isnt like metal tools.

Interesting though, I recently attended the most excellent Fids and Fibers splicing workshop. Splicing is way more complex than hand-stitching, there are nearly infinite ways to mess it up. The knowledge, care and craftsmanship required to build a safe-to-use splice is deep. A splice can be made by anyone by following instructions on youtube, an aspiring splicer could very easily build a splice that looks fine (to the non-expert), but which is actually dangerous to climb on. I hear no clamoring for people to stop making their own splices for life support.

We all really need to give credit to the intelligence and common sense of the climbers who do the research, put the time and hard work in and come up with an excellent hand sewn eye or or traditional spliced piece. Different approaches that can each result in excellent life support quality work.

Hand-stitched work is simple, the materials and methods have been made clear, nothing is hidden, it is highly inspectable and testable. I believe my eyes are stronger and more durable than machine made eyes, I can use heavier thread, I can wax the thread (which increases tensile and durability), I can precompress a join much tighter than a machine can, I can tension and balance each stitch as well or better than a machine. I'm not bragging, these are simple facts. I've taken apart a fair number of machine stitched eyes, most are excellent but I've seen some horrible machine made eyes from the most reputable providers. These are not unsafe (as afar as I can tell) but they are not inspiring.

It's worth remembering that every person who makes their own life support gear, is going to do so with the highest regard for their own safety. Who is going to care more about their own safety then a tree climber who makes their own spliced eye or sewn their own gear? Really, think about it. When you put your life on a rope there is no room for doubt about the quality of gear, I don't believe any climber who makes their own gear is going to hang on something they doubt.

It's kind of ridiculous that I even have to make these kinds of statements. If innovative climbers didn't move forward and try out-of-the-box ideas we wouldn't have such industry changing tools like the rope wrench, BDB, runner, and hopefully the Akimbo. That's a short list obviously of the great innovations that have come from the able and experienced minds of tree climbers. Hand-sewing eyes isn't going to revolutionize anything (as far as I know) but for the small number of people who perfect their craft, it is highly satisfying and very safe.
-AJ

 

[moss]

I also understand that industry manufacturers and suppliers will never endorse hand-sewing for life support gear. Why would they. Just saying so undermines their liability position. There will always be tension between innovators and current standards and practices. Look at what it took to get the rope wrench accepted for ISA competition. There will always be push and pull as we move forward improving our gear and methods.
-AJ

 

[TimBr]

@moss; You tell'em, moss! Moral hazard and all of that rot. Nobody has a bigger stake in the viability of a piece of gear than the person who hangs their life from it.

I really appreciate all of the gorgeous photographs you produce and post of your amazing work. Thanks for sharing your knowledge.

Tim

 

[moss]

Thx Tim!

 

[Richard Mumford-yoyoman]

Sew on, splice on, live long and move ever forward. Meanwhile guys are dying from the known and real dangers they fail to protect themselves from.

 

[moss]

Sewing on, splice on, live long and move ever forward. Meanwhile guys are dying from the known and real dangers they fail to protect themselves from.

Exactly.

 

[evo]

I also understand that industry manufacturers and suppliers will never endorse hand-sewing for life support gear. Why would they. Just saying so undermines their liability position. There will always be tension between innovators and current standards and practices. Look at what it took to get the rope wrench accepted for ISA competition. There will always be push and pull as we move forward improving our gear and methods.
-AJ

Good point, and to add to it most arb suppliers will sell splicing tools, and link to splicing instructions. Is this hypocritical? I feel much safer on my own splices, vrs manufactured as I know the attention to detail. I've chucked manufactured sewn splices right out of the box because I wouldn't hang 15' off the ground from them.

 

[TimBr]

@evo; What was it you were seeing that alarmed you, and caused you to chuck the splice? Loose stitching? Or something else? I'm just looking for a clue here, to help me when I do my own examinations of such gear.

Thanks in advance for your time, and for any answers you choose to give.

Tim

 

[Richard Mumford-yoyoman]

When manufactures go thru so much effort to document splices, why will they do NOTHING toward stitching? I'm referring to both hand stitching and machine stitching.

 

[bonner1040]

Interesting though, I recently attended the most excellent Fids and Fibers splicing workshop. Splicing is way more complex than hand-stitching, there are nearly infinite ways to mess it up. The knowledge, care and craftsmanship required to build a safe-to-use splice is deep. A splice can be made by anyone by following instructions on youtube, an aspiring splicer could very easily build a splice that looks fine (to the non-expert), but which is actually dangerous to climb on. I hear no clamoring for people to stop making their own splices for life support.

We all really need to give credit to the intelligence and common sense of the climbers who do the research, put the time and hard work in and come up with an excellent hand sewn eye or or traditional spliced piece. Different approaches that can each result in excellent life support quality work.

Hand-stitched work is simple, the materials and methods have been made clear, nothing is hidden, it is highly inspectable and testable. I believe my eyes are stronger and more durable than machine made eyes, I can use heavier thread, I can wax the thread (which increases tensile and durability), I can precompress a join much tighter than a machine can, I can tension and balance each stitch as well or better than a machine. I'm not bragging, these are simple facts. I've taken apart a fair number of machine stitched eyes, most are excellent but I've seen some horrible machine made eyes from the most reputable providers. These are not unsafe (as afar as I can tell) but they are not inspiring.

It's worth remembering that every person who makes their own life support gear, is going to do so with the highest regard for their own safety. Who is going to care more about their own safety then a tree climber who makes their own spliced eye or sewn their own gear? Really, think about it. When you put your life on a rope there is no room for doubt about the quality of gear, I don't believe any climber who makes their own gear is going to hang on something they doubt.

It's kind of ridiculous that I even have to make these kinds of statements. If innovative climbers didn't move forward and try out-of-the-box ideas we wouldn't have such industry changing tools like the rope wrench, BDB, runner, and hopefully the Akimbo. That's a short list obviously of the great innovations that have come from the able and experienced minds of tree climbers. Hand-sewing eyes isn't going to revolutionize anything (as far as I know) but for the small number of people who perfect their craft, it is highly satisfying and very safe.
-AJ

I think this is a great post. There is a lot of truth in those words.

Both my personal opinion and professional position on the matter remain the same, however I have all the respect in the world for you, Moss.

 

[SomethingWitty]

Interesting though, I recently attended the most excellent Fids and Fibers splicing workshop. Splicing is way more complex than hand-stitching, there are nearly infinite ways to mess it up. The knowledge, care and craftsmanship required to build a safe-to-use splice is deep. A splice can be made by anyone by following instructions on youtube, an aspiring splicer could very easily build a splice that looks fine (to the non-expert), but which is actually dangerous to climb on. I hear no clamoring for people to stop making their own splices for life support.

We all really need to give credit to the intelligence and common sense of the climbers who do the research, put the time and hard work in and come up with an excellent hand sewn eye or or traditional spliced piece. Different approaches that can each result in excellent life support quality work.

Hand-stitched work is simple, the materials and methods have been made clear, nothing is hidden, it is highly inspectable and testable. I believe my eyes are stronger and more durable than machine made eyes, I can use heavier thread, I can wax the thread (which increases tensile and durability), I can precompress a join much tighter than a machine can, I can tension and balance each stitch as well or better than a machine. I'm not bragging, these are simple facts. I've taken apart a fair number of machine stitched eyes, most are excellent but I've seen some horrible machine made eyes from the most reputable providers. These are not unsafe (as afar as I can tell) but they are not inspiring.

It's worth remembering that every person who makes their own life support gear, is going to do so with the highest regard for their own safety. Who is going to care more about their own safety then a tree climber who makes their own spliced eye or sewn their own gear? Really, think about it. When you put your life on a rope there is no room for doubt about the quality of gear, I don't believe any climber who makes their own gear is going to hang on something they doubt.

It's kind of ridiculous that I even have to make these kinds of statements. If innovative climbers didn't move forward and try out-of-the-box ideas we wouldn't have such industry changing tools like the rope wrench, BDB, runner, and hopefully the Akimbo. That's a short list obviously of the great innovations that have come from the able and experienced minds of tree climbers. Hand-sewing eyes isn't going to revolutionize anything (as far as I know) but for the small number of people who perfect their craft, it is highly satisfying and very safe.
-AJ

So... About that John Henry-esque contest that should happen...

 

[moss]

So... About that John Henry-esque contest that should happen...

That's a good one. The only hand-sewn eye I'll sacrifice right now is on a retired Tachyon, the eye and line has 3 years of climbing on it. I'd be glad have it broken to advance science ;-)

 

[moss]

Thanks for the comments Nick. Every once in a while I write something good ;-)

 

[SoftBankHawks]

That's a good one. The only hand-sewn eye I'll sacrifice right now is on a retired Tachyon, the eye and line has 3 years of climbing on it. I'd be glad have it broken to advance science ;-)

Perhaps science would benefit more from breaking a range of weak to strong, differing patterns, a range of tensions within the 3 layers etc etc !! We all know YOUR stitch is bomber Moss ! By the by what does that Treestuff man mean by his 'professional opinion' ??! As a professional manager of a store?! Of an evangelical supporter of STRONG EQUIPMENT? Of a professional rope worker with intricate knowledge of fibre, tension, dynamic loadings? I mean...what the fuck?

 

[SoftBankHawks]

While the multiscenders are innovative in design and have opened a world to us rope workers I see nothing useful in comparing hand stitching to them. The multiscenders are stuck in an ever deepening hole and seem to refuse to come out. They are our gay uncle that nobody really wants to talk seriously about. I've just finished a 10 day arb trek to the UK and Germany and it is shocking how irrelevant they are. By their current definition they have no value within the european and UK industry. I would rather see hand-stitching fully quantified than kept as a secret in the closet.

 

[oceans]

This thread is very not bad.

 

[moss]

This thread is very not bad.

Haha.

I mentioned multicenders simply to point out that doing anything outside "the norm" faces resistance. If we gave in to that resistance there would be nothing new under the sun.

 

[surveyor]

Moss was willing to try one of my very early OAR devices, which was an encouragement to me.

 

[SoftBankHawks]

And I encourage you to seek out ways to certify it. You and many others know the CBB works, you have a chance to take lead in a market place waiting to explode, something akin to a teenagers loins. It'll make you richer in soul and bank balance and will encourage further radical tool development. Go for it Gordon ! Like I said to Akimbo man, (not that he answered) there are many people available to help you through the certifying process.

 

[moss]

Moss was willing to try one of my very early OAR devices, which was an encouragement to me.

The opportunity was much appreciated Gordon!