Discipline

If while you're on company time and working in company uniform with company equipment then it's the company's job. That you may have sold it is neither here nor there, it's all on the company's dime. What you may want to do is discuss a commission being paid for selling side jobs or even upselling on a job.

As for the "tip", that $60 was paid for services rendered. That doesn't constitute a tip. A tip is money given in appreciation for the quality of the work you performed and is above and beyond the agreed amount for the service.

This often becomes an issue when a company has a vague policy that allows some and not other side work to be paid directly to the employees. That, IMHO, is a recipe for disaster, as you've discovered.

As for the use of your gear including your saw, that comes down to what is agreed upon between employer and employee. By virtue of the 1% they are in effect renting it during that time. If you choose to use your own gear and opt out of that which is provided by the employer then you're lending it to them at no charge but that doesn't construe to mean you somehow are justified to then borrow time from them at no cost to you in order to perform work under your own name.

That they disciplined you is a matter for you to take up with them. At this point you could ask for a meeting to review policies and get clarification. Maybe even to go so far as to rewrite the policy to be clear on it. I would then negotiate on the personal equipment use. Maybe an allowance that will help defray the replacement costs due to extra wear and tear.

However, as with all negotiations, if you can't get up and walk away from the table then you've lost. Be prepared to move to a company that will better appreciate what you bring to the table. Do your negotiations prior to accepting any offer to be sure you are going to get everything that you feel you merit, from commissions for selling, fair compensation for the use of your own equipment, etc…
 
treehumper said:
If while you're on company time and working in company uniform with company equipment then it's the company's job. That you may have sold it is neither here nor there, it's all on the company's dime. What you may want to do is discuss a commission being paid for selling side jobs or even upselling on a job.

As for the "tip", that $60 was paid for services rendered. That doesn't constitute a tip. A tip is money given in appreciation for the quality of the work you performed and is above and beyond the agreed amount for the service.

This often becomes an issue when a company has a vague policy that allows some and not other side work to be paid directly to the employees. That, IMHO, is a recipe for disaster, as you've discovered.

As for the use of your gear including your saw, that comes down to what is agreed upon between employer and employee. By virtue of the 1% they are in effect renting it during that time. If you choose to use your own gear and opt out of that which is provided by the employer then you're lending it to them at no charge but that doesn't construe to mean you somehow are justified to then borrow time from them at no cost to you in order to perform work under your own name.

That they disciplined you is a matter for you to take up with them. At this point you could ask for a meeting to review policies and get clarification. Maybe even to go so far as to rewrite the policy to be clear on it. I would then negotiate on the personal equipment use. Maybe an allowance that will help defray the replacement costs due to extra wear and tear.

However, as with all negotiations, if you can't get up and walk away from the table then you've lost. Be prepared to move to a company that will better appreciate what you bring to the table. Do your negotiations prior to accepting any offer to be sure you are going to get everything that you feel you merit, from commissions for selling, fair compensation for the use of your own equipment, etc…
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What do you find to be an appropriate punishment?
 
Great points, discuss the above mentioned points with your employer.
For example, I get yearly budgets for things like tools, work clothes/boots, and education that arent tied to salary. Worth looking into.
 
I haven't worked a forty for the last month with rain. I gotta pay for my house and there's definitely gonna be lost days with snow right around the corner
 
If as an owner I felt that this was becoming a problem, I'd address it with a clear policy. Personally, all work generated by employee presence during company time is the company's. Any monies paid to you is to be documented all with the work performed and the time spent. It is unfair to the client who is paying us to be there in the first place to have any of the crew wander off to do paid work for someone else. They may not say anything to the crew but they will bring it up to the salesperson or owner.

Once the new policy is in place with a 2 week grace period to allow for adoption and adjustment then it would fall under the general disciplinary procedure.

Jem4417 said:
I haven't worked a forty for the last month with rain. I gotta pay for my house and there's definitely gonna be lost days with snow right around the corner
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What comes immediately to mind reading this is the expression, "pennywise, pound foolish". In other words your actions to gain a few bucks left you vulnerable to losing more. You interpreted the policy to your favor whereas you needed to interpret in the company's favor. Tough way to learn. Now is the time to get things straighten out for the future. They'll appreciate your businesslike approach or reveal themselves as a less than ideal employer. Then it's time to seek out someone better.
 
I agree with those above, you are working on company time with company equipment, you can do you side jobs on the weekend or after work. We pool our tip money and use it to go out for lunch or the like as a group when it builds up. The fact that you are using all your own equipment is another issue. I get anything my workers want within reason, someone that brought all that gear to one of my sites would be a contract climber that I had negotiated a fixed rate for whatever I wanted them to do that day. I concur with the others, everywhere you look companys are looking for climbers so if your current gig isnt working maybe have a look around.
 
I'm new to this forum, but I'd like to weigh in on this. I also agree that if you are on company time, in company uniform, than it is definitely at the very least a suspendible offence. I've seen people get fired for simply soliciting work on company time, without a dollar even being exchanged. Bottom line, while you are being paid by your employer, you are their representative. If you don't believe you are being paid well enough, then that is something you need to take up with your employer or move on. Taking money for doing work on their time is no different than stealing directly from them.


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Jem4417 said:
I get your stand point but for how terrible we could take advantage of the side game and how much we honestly don't with being told through the grapevine from senior employees that they aren't gonna get to nuts if it's not much too get the tip money from the original taken away and a one day suspension after myself and no one else on the crew has ever been written up seems to be way too much
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Ok this is a $hit attitude to have as an employee... and not a benchmark to be making decisions based on. For how terrible you could take advantage of the company???? Really??? You have spent time thinking about it, how much more you could steal!
You can't be treated that badly, and if you are it's your own fault. I'm in a very drivable market from you and everybody is looking for a good respectable climber and offering good money for them. And it's been that way for 4 or 5 years. Preservation tree was looking forever on here.
You are the master of your own destiny, do something about your situation or stop complaining about it.
I'm sorry if I'm too blunt, but it's late, I'm tired and just all around cranky.
 
Well I probably have nothing of value to add here aside from my own experiences. I worked for a shit company. I brought my own gear, not just the coolest shiny climbing gear that really only made my life easier but the vast majority of rigging gear. The only sharp saws on the job site were mine. He survived because of my gear. This wasn't a small company either. Several trucks and all the goodies to make it work. He's been in the game for 25 years. The key was he got the cow and the milk free. He never had to spring to replace his shit gear because I brought mine. It was a bad situation, I whined on here for quite a while. I mean it was really bad. He treated everyone like shit. Shorted pay, taxed for broken stuff, cheated and stole. He never did it to me because I was the cash cow but sometime I went up to a month without pay.

So this is my point from a personal standpoint. The guys would hustle side work all the time because he was such an asshole. I would never, ever do it or participate in it. I never ever accepted any of the money they split between themselves even though they offered every time. Also, when we got tips, I threw mine back in the pot because these guys got cheated so badly by the boss. I understand why they were doing it. It was a choice. I chose not to do it. As bad as he was he was still my boss and it was still stealing. I had to be able to look myself in the mirror and know I did the rite thing. I also had no place else to go that would pay me the kind of money he paid me(late or not). Had I made the choice to hustle I would have been no better than he was cheating the guys out of hours.

If you own your own biz, you have to be able to trust your employees. If you suck then you deserve to have all your employees quit, not steal. You never learn your lesson from that. Look I'd rather have my guys give me that $150 the got "chipping for the neighbor real quick" so I could say "Thank's for being honest guys, you've been doing a great job and I appreciate you. I'm gonna pull 10 for fuel and the rest is yours."
 
Suspended? That is some bullshit. The owners and managers are responsible for the situation. They are the ones who have employees who are compelled to do buzzys while on the job, maybe because they don't get paid enough? Who wants to do extra work? Place sounds and looks like daycare, Jack. There are 102 million standing dead trees in California, single climber guys are getting paid, seriously paid....
 
Steve Connally said:
Well I probably have nothing of value to add here aside from my own experiences. I worked for a shit company. I brought my own gear, not just the coolest shiny climbing gear that really only made my life easier but the vast majority of rigging gear. The only sharp saws on the job site were mine. He survived because of my gear. This wasn't a small company either. Several trucks and all the goodies to make it work. He's been in the game for 25 years. The key was he got the cow and the milk free. He never had to spring to replace his shit gear because I brought mine. It was a bad situation, I whined on here for quite a while. I mean it was really bad. He treated everyone like shit. Shorted pay, taxed for broken stuff, cheated and stole. He never did it to me because I was the cash cow but sometime I went up to a month without pay.

So this is my point from a personal standpoint. The guys would hustle side work all the time because he was such an asshole. I would never, ever do it or participate in it. I never ever accepted any of the money they split between themselves even though they offered every time. Also, when we got tips, I threw mine back in the pot because these guys got cheated so badly by the boss. I understand why they were doing it. It was a choice. I chose not to do it. As bad as he was he was still my boss and it was still stealing. I had to be able to look myself in the mirror and know I did the rite thing. I also had no place else to go that would pay me the kind of money he paid me(late or not). Had I made the choice to hustle I would have been no better than he was cheating the guys out of hours.

If you own your own biz, you have to be able to trust your employees. If you suck then you deserve to have all your employees quit, not steal. You never learn your lesson from that. Look I'd rather have my guys give me that $150 the got "chipping for the neighbor real quick" so I could say "Thank's for being honest guys, you've been doing a great job and I appreciate you. I'm gonna pull 10 for fuel and the rest is yours."
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There is a principle of management similar to manifest destiny. Many levels to this, but simply...

If you trust your employees, they will know it and will work when you are not there. you will catch them working and it will reinforce your trust.

If you do not trust your employees, they will know it and will not work (or as hard) when you are not there. You will catch them not working, that will reinforce your lack of trust.

Both situations circle back on them selfs creating manifest destiny.
 
Matthew Roy said:
I'm new to this forum, but I'd like to weigh in on this. I also agree that if you are on company time, in company uniform, than it is definitely at the very least a suspendible offence. I've seen people get fired for simply soliciting work on company time, without a dollar even being exchanged. Bottom line, while you are being paid by your employer, you are their representative. If you don't believe you are being paid well enough, then that is something you need to take up with your employer or move on. Taking money for doing work on their time is no different than stealing directly from them.


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Welcome to TreeBuzz Matthew...this is a passion filled thread to jump into. :)
 
Jem4417 said:
What do you find to be an appropriate punishment?
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I'm not sure I exactly understand the 'facts as they happened' but after reading the whole thread I suspect what you're looking for is a hard thing to get. If you and crew are generally good people doing good things it seems to me the missing link here is for the boss to slap his hand to his forehead and say, "I've screwed up here." In letting this all be vague I have left room for you to trip up. Henceforth this is the company policy.....

I agree with all the early answers, earned money is company money (should be) tip is for who and what the customer sees you as being as you do the work.
 
We all deserve to be well paid and treated with respect for what we do. Taking small amounts of cash for doing side work while on the job doesn't do anything to help legitimize us as real tradespeople. I've never had a plumber or an electrician ask me for cash for doing something extra. I get billed for it.

I definitely feel for anyone who's in a shite situation and not being paid fairly or respected. I've been there. Just don't lower yourself to their level by stealing from them. Find something else, even if it's not tree work. Go drive a truck, anything, just keep your dignity. It will pay off eventually!


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Levi.CO said:
Suspended? That is some bullshit. The owners and managers are responsible for the situation. They are the ones who have employees who are compelled to do buzzys while on the job, maybe because they don't get paid enough? Who wants to do extra work? Place sounds and looks like daycare, Jack. There are 102 million standing dead trees in California, single climber guys are getting paid, seriously paid....
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And get a sweet hat and shades like Levi here.
You are at a good point in your life to move around, see what's out there, learn from other folks, etc. Give it a whirl.
 
First of all I would never had let things get to that point. I treated my employees very well. Having said that if I had caught one of them doing what we are discussing they would have been fired on the spot. Not the end of the day. On the spot. I fired a guy for throwing his trash next to the truck in the street. Leaving it there and then not telling the truth about it. Trust and honesty is the only thing we have in this shit world.
 
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