Hey Xman, that's for all the info. I wish they explained that on their sheet that the price was per 1000BF. I wouldn't have had my hopes up so high. Only thing I'm leary of is there grading. What's to stop them from grading the wood lesser than it is. They do tell me to cut them a the odd #s 9'-17' although I hear of other mills only wanting a few inches over the final cut. So is it better to have a longer log even though of the taper? I would think they would take the BF caculations from the smaller diameter. As for the load I posted, it was a mix of red oak and poplar mainly, but also a little white oak and cherry. Even had a couple peices of pin oak but told me that woods worthless. They gave me a few dollars I guess for pallet wood. They did make the comment that "well at least we made room in you yard" thanks. /forum/images/graemlins/confused.gif
Disappointed with logs to lumber service
- Thread starter Cameron
- Start date
treebing
Been here much more than a while
- Location
- Detroit, Mi.
Hey xman, that was great, thanks. How does ash sell? We have an overabundance in Michigan due to the EAB.
- Location
- The Kingdom of Fife
Cameron, Heres a Product Volume of Timber Meters Cubed calculation that I used to use while at college doing my Woodland Skills Class. Maybe you need to convert it in to US Volume measurements as it is all in metric for all here in Europe.
Calculation goes a bit like this, this is all in cm´s
Dbh x Dbh = ?
x 3.14 = ?
/ 40,000 = ?
x height of tree or stem section length = ?
x 0.4 for Hardwoods or 0.5 for Softwoods = ?
= Meters Cubed Volume = Answer
e.g You have a Duggy Fir stem of 8m (26ft) and say 75cm´s wide (2.5ft wide)
75cm x 75cm = 5625
x 3.14 = 17662.5
/ 40,000 = 0.4415625
x 8m´s high/long = 3.5325
x 0.5 = 1.76625 M3 (1.76 m3 0verall)
If you are wondering why you divide by 40,000 cm2, is because there is 40,000 cm2 in in a meters cube.
Softwoods are generally measured bottom to top as they whole tree is used, and hardwoods to the first dominant fork for timber value. .4 and .5 are grading values.
Scotty
Calculation goes a bit like this, this is all in cm´s
Dbh x Dbh = ?
x 3.14 = ?
/ 40,000 = ?
x height of tree or stem section length = ?
x 0.4 for Hardwoods or 0.5 for Softwoods = ?
= Meters Cubed Volume = Answer
e.g You have a Duggy Fir stem of 8m (26ft) and say 75cm´s wide (2.5ft wide)
75cm x 75cm = 5625
x 3.14 = 17662.5
/ 40,000 = 0.4415625
x 8m´s high/long = 3.5325
x 0.5 = 1.76625 M3 (1.76 m3 0verall)
If you are wondering why you divide by 40,000 cm2, is because there is 40,000 cm2 in in a meters cube.
Softwoods are generally measured bottom to top as they whole tree is used, and hardwoods to the first dominant fork for timber value. .4 and .5 are grading values.
Scotty
- Location
- NW Oregon Coast Range
Something you guys need to keep in mind is that the likelihood of finding metal in a tree seems to have an exponential relationship with its proximity to a house. Many places will not even touch a residential tree for this reason. A good metal detector can solve this problem, but it takes time and time is money if you are running a high volume mill. Residential trees usually work best in a niche market situation. I can't speak for prices since I'm on the other side of the continent.
Cary
Cary
[ QUOTE ]
So is it better to have a longer log even though of the taper? I would think they would take the BF caculations from the smaller diameter.
[/ QUOTE ]
as far as grading is concerned log graders use different "log rules" to grade logs. here's a link to site that gives some short info on the log rules if you do some more searching online you could figure out how to grade logs and give a good guess as to how much BF you should have after sawing. there are also some books as well. also you could do a search for "scaling and grading logs" on a search engine. good luck
So is it better to have a longer log even though of the taper? I would think they would take the BF caculations from the smaller diameter.
[/ QUOTE ]
as far as grading is concerned log graders use different "log rules" to grade logs. here's a link to site that gives some short info on the log rules if you do some more searching online you could figure out how to grade logs and give a good guess as to how much BF you should have after sawing. there are also some books as well. also you could do a search for "scaling and grading logs" on a search engine. good luck
We deal in board feet here in the us. Actual mass volume doesn't really matter (unless you are selling to pulp mills, then it goes by weight though).
The three main scales here are Doyle, Scribner, and International. (probably spelled wrong)
We use a scaling stick ( a ruler or tape). You measure the SMALL end of the log. They have formulas built into them that account for log tapper, sawdust lost, slabwood lost, etc. You hook the tape or ruler onto the outside of the bark on one side, stretch it across the end of the log, and measure to the sap wood line, NOT to the bark on the other side.
Doyle and scribner were the old ones, they assume the mill using a 1/2 blade, 1/2 inch is wasted as sawdust. One of those scales had a mathmatical error in it, so it paid you a tad bit more on small stuff, and less on bigger diameters. (if I remember correctly, been a while since forest measurements classes)
Best, most accurate scale is International 1/4inch. Assumes the mill is using a band saw with 1/4 cut, as most modern mills do. Very little circular 1/2 blade mills left, (yet a family friend still does run a mill like this). Some mills still do use the Doyle scale though. That export guy I deal with still does. (probably saves him lots of money by scaling smaller totals).
Someone correct me if I'm wrong on any of this stuff, I did graduate in 95, so maybe I've gotten something wrong, although I don't think so.
The three main scales here are Doyle, Scribner, and International. (probably spelled wrong)
We use a scaling stick ( a ruler or tape). You measure the SMALL end of the log. They have formulas built into them that account for log tapper, sawdust lost, slabwood lost, etc. You hook the tape or ruler onto the outside of the bark on one side, stretch it across the end of the log, and measure to the sap wood line, NOT to the bark on the other side.
Doyle and scribner were the old ones, they assume the mill using a 1/2 blade, 1/2 inch is wasted as sawdust. One of those scales had a mathmatical error in it, so it paid you a tad bit more on small stuff, and less on bigger diameters. (if I remember correctly, been a while since forest measurements classes)
Best, most accurate scale is International 1/4inch. Assumes the mill is using a band saw with 1/4 cut, as most modern mills do. Very little circular 1/2 blade mills left, (yet a family friend still does run a mill like this). Some mills still do use the Doyle scale though. That export guy I deal with still does. (probably saves him lots of money by scaling smaller totals).
Someone correct me if I'm wrong on any of this stuff, I did graduate in 95, so maybe I've gotten something wrong, although I don't think so.
- Location
- Madison, Wi
That all looks about right, however, I think the scribner rule tends to be favored more in the southern states. but as far as I know international over all tends to be the most accurate....although it depends on the species or so Ive been told
treebing,
Ash should be pretty decent, especially if tight rings and real white color. I'm guessing 45cents a board foot. I haven't taken ash logs in a long time. I love it as firewood though
Also, I'm sure you've all heard of Paulownia (princess tree) money stories. They went for big big bucks in the late 80s (paulownia theives and such). Not as high anymore, but I hear still pretty darn good. But, the ones grown out in the open that grew fast with big rings aren't worth very much. Find one in the woods and I hear you can make out really good still.
You guys can buy a log rule from Baileys or some other logging catalog. That way you can check to see that the mill is tallying up the BD FT correctly. Just be sure to measure the small end and from bark on one side to sap wood ring on the other. Look at the inches mark on the rule, then look to find your log length written in feet on the rule, it will tell you corresponding board feet. I'll make up some numbers here for an example (these are not likely accurate, I'm guessing) say you measure the small end of your log, you hook the rule on and measure to the sap wood, it measures 23 inches. You then measure the length of the log and it measures 10ft 3inches. You look under the twenty three mark on the ruler and it will have several different large numbers, like 148, 225, 359, 470.... now look toward the beginning of the ruler, you will see the numbers 8, 10, 12, 16, 20. These are log lenths in feet. Pick your log legnth of 10 and follow it down the ruler to the 23" mark and you will find it to line up with that big number of 225, this is your board feet, 225BDFT.
Ash should be pretty decent, especially if tight rings and real white color. I'm guessing 45cents a board foot. I haven't taken ash logs in a long time. I love it as firewood though
Also, I'm sure you've all heard of Paulownia (princess tree) money stories. They went for big big bucks in the late 80s (paulownia theives and such). Not as high anymore, but I hear still pretty darn good. But, the ones grown out in the open that grew fast with big rings aren't worth very much. Find one in the woods and I hear you can make out really good still.
You guys can buy a log rule from Baileys or some other logging catalog. That way you can check to see that the mill is tallying up the BD FT correctly. Just be sure to measure the small end and from bark on one side to sap wood ring on the other. Look at the inches mark on the rule, then look to find your log length written in feet on the rule, it will tell you corresponding board feet. I'll make up some numbers here for an example (these are not likely accurate, I'm guessing) say you measure the small end of your log, you hook the rule on and measure to the sap wood, it measures 23 inches. You then measure the length of the log and it measures 10ft 3inches. You look under the twenty three mark on the ruler and it will have several different large numbers, like 148, 225, 359, 470.... now look toward the beginning of the ruler, you will see the numbers 8, 10, 12, 16, 20. These are log lenths in feet. Pick your log legnth of 10 and follow it down the ruler to the 23" mark and you will find it to line up with that big number of 225, this is your board feet, 225BDFT.
Cameron,
You said, "Only thing I'm leary of is there grading. What's to stop them from grading the wood lesser than it is."
Exactly, and you should be leary of that, cause this is one thing that is basically up to their opinion.
At least the board feet is measured by a unit of measure (well, they can take out defects kinda by their opinion too, although there are formulas for that too).
But yes, the grading is where they could really cheat ya. And you not being a big supplier, they probably will cheat ya.
Think up something clever to make them value you as a customer maybe, find a friend in the business, whatever you can do. Find a logger you can trust, have him take the logs in for you.
The guy that takes mine, at one mill, he grades and scales his load HIMSELF and just turns in the paperwork for the mill to write him a check. The mill trusts his judgement. But that's the only mill I've heard of doing this and he's the only one the mill lets do this. He can take the logs in as his, they write him a check, then he writes me a check. If you do stuff this way, you better be able to trust him very well.
Or, Maybe, tell the mill you are getting into small land clearing jobs and you will be bringing in logs often. Whether you do or not, they might treat you a little better.
Write the lengths on the logs in paint, maybe even the BDFT to show that you are keeping track of things, if they know you are keeping track, maybe they will scale more carefully.
Take stuff to different mills to compare, let it slip in your conversation that you are going to other mills.
You said, "Only thing I'm leary of is there grading. What's to stop them from grading the wood lesser than it is."
Exactly, and you should be leary of that, cause this is one thing that is basically up to their opinion.
At least the board feet is measured by a unit of measure (well, they can take out defects kinda by their opinion too, although there are formulas for that too).
But yes, the grading is where they could really cheat ya. And you not being a big supplier, they probably will cheat ya.
Think up something clever to make them value you as a customer maybe, find a friend in the business, whatever you can do. Find a logger you can trust, have him take the logs in for you.
The guy that takes mine, at one mill, he grades and scales his load HIMSELF and just turns in the paperwork for the mill to write him a check. The mill trusts his judgement. But that's the only mill I've heard of doing this and he's the only one the mill lets do this. He can take the logs in as his, they write him a check, then he writes me a check. If you do stuff this way, you better be able to trust him very well.
Or, Maybe, tell the mill you are getting into small land clearing jobs and you will be bringing in logs often. Whether you do or not, they might treat you a little better.
Write the lengths on the logs in paint, maybe even the BDFT to show that you are keeping track of things, if they know you are keeping track, maybe they will scale more carefully.
Take stuff to different mills to compare, let it slip in your conversation that you are going to other mills.
[ QUOTE ]
Something you guys need to keep in mind is that the likelihood of finding metal in a tree seems to have an exponential relationship with its proximity to a house. Many places will not even touch a residential tree for this reason. A good metal detector can solve this problem, but it takes time and time is money if you are running a high volume mill. Residential trees usually work best in a niche market situation. I can't speak for prices since I'm on the other side of the continent.
Cary
[/ QUOTE ]
Very true. And the trashier the neighborhood, the more likely there are nails, chains, spikes and wire in the trees.
You need to have a good eye for the slightest scar in the bark. Or of course, that tell-tale purple stain in any oak wood.
Most high production mills I've visited have built-in metal detectors. No hand held stuff anymore. Also, pulp mills have built-in ones too, they stop the conveyor automatically so it doesn't get chipped.
Another friend of mine has a portable WoodMiser (sp?) mill. He is supplied exclussively with logs from my tree service and my two brothers tree services. They let him set up on my brothers farm. He uses a hand held metal detector if he sees anything funny. It works really well too.
Something you guys need to keep in mind is that the likelihood of finding metal in a tree seems to have an exponential relationship with its proximity to a house. Many places will not even touch a residential tree for this reason. A good metal detector can solve this problem, but it takes time and time is money if you are running a high volume mill. Residential trees usually work best in a niche market situation. I can't speak for prices since I'm on the other side of the continent.
Cary
[/ QUOTE ]
Very true. And the trashier the neighborhood, the more likely there are nails, chains, spikes and wire in the trees.
You need to have a good eye for the slightest scar in the bark. Or of course, that tell-tale purple stain in any oak wood.
Most high production mills I've visited have built-in metal detectors. No hand held stuff anymore. Also, pulp mills have built-in ones too, they stop the conveyor automatically so it doesn't get chipped.
Another friend of mine has a portable WoodMiser (sp?) mill. He is supplied exclussively with logs from my tree service and my two brothers tree services. They let him set up on my brothers farm. He uses a hand held metal detector if he sees anything funny. It works really well too.
Oh, and the last thing I'll say for now. If you guys keep the attitude of, "what ever we get we get, we don't care, we just need to get rid of it". Then tree services will continue to get ripped off at log yards. Take some time to shop around, don't give off the attitude and act like you don't care. You might find your log sales could go from $3000 a year to $12,000 by finding the right place and knowing what you should be getting. Scale those logs, look for knots, bend, shake, mineral, rot and try to guess what grade. If the log grader is grading, watch him grade your logs and ask him why (hopefully he won't get pissed).
Mangoes
Participating member
- Location
- Greater Toronto Area
Hey that's cool Mangoes. That's in Canada though, too bad they aren't here, we could sell to them. Anyone know of a place on the East Coast?
I do save burls, unique spalting, some crothes, etc. I used to supply a bowl maker in Western Maryland at my old location.
I'm saving them in a shed, I lot of the other stuff I tried to save ended up rotting in the outdoors.
I bought a lathe (kinda cheap) 3 or 4 years ago, haven't used it once yet. Keep waiting for that free time.
I like that box elder, especially burls. The finish piece does fade over time though, especially if it gets any sunlight.
Tom, you play with this wood working stuff, don't you?
I do save burls, unique spalting, some crothes, etc. I used to supply a bowl maker in Western Maryland at my old location.
I'm saving them in a shed, I lot of the other stuff I tried to save ended up rotting in the outdoors.
I bought a lathe (kinda cheap) 3 or 4 years ago, haven't used it once yet. Keep waiting for that free time.
I like that box elder, especially burls. The finish piece does fade over time though, especially if it gets any sunlight.
Tom, you play with this wood working stuff, don't you?
- Location
- Retired in Minneapolis
I do when I have a shop to work in. It is really a treat to make something from wood that we saved from the chipper or the dump.
- Location
- San Francisco, CA
[ QUOTE ]
That all looks about right, however, I think the scribner rule tends to be favored more in the southern states. but as far as I know international over all tends to be the most accurate....although it depends on the species or so Ive been told
[/ QUOTE ]I will fight you.
That all looks about right, however, I think the scribner rule tends to be favored more in the southern states. but as far as I know international over all tends to be the most accurate....although it depends on the species or so Ive been told
[/ QUOTE ]I will fight you.
- Location
- Grand Marais, MN
Familiar with the log buyer's sites I'm finding it's gatting rare that someone jumps on an opportunity. I've been trying to interest someone in a 28' select primo black cherry that's laying on the ground here. No taper, no bores, no knots, acceptional piece of hardwood. Three mills in the area but not much interest unless I load and haul and give away free. Can't reward that kind of business practice so I'll chunk her down to moveable lengths and put her up in the barn to air dry. Pity.
With all the construction and senseless importation of exotic hardwoods, I can't understand this too well.
With all the construction and senseless importation of exotic hardwoods, I can't understand this too well.
- Location
- Retired in Minneapolis
Reed,
Be sure to get some end coating on ASAP! Anchorseal is one, layers of any paint will work. My Dad would melt down wax and paint it on the wood that he was drying for turning.
Keep it off the ground too. Powder post beetles love cherry. A spray of borax solution will keep most of the munchers away.
Be sure to get some end coating on ASAP! Anchorseal is one, layers of any paint will work. My Dad would melt down wax and paint it on the wood that he was drying for turning.
Keep it off the ground too. Powder post beetles love cherry. A spray of borax solution will keep most of the munchers away.
- Location
- NW Oregon Coast Range
[ QUOTE ]
... layers of any paint will work. ...
[/ QUOTE ]Latex paint works best as far as paint is concerned. Bailey's sells some sealer as well. I use something from a local manufacturer that also works great. The professional sealers are basically a wax based paint.
Others have posted a lot of good information, but if all you want to do is a simple scaling job you can use a normal tape measure and a scale table. It's not as fast a a scaling stick, but works just as well. I keep a couple fancy ones around for when the stick is playing hide and seek.
... layers of any paint will work. ...
[/ QUOTE ]Latex paint works best as far as paint is concerned. Bailey's sells some sealer as well. I use something from a local manufacturer that also works great. The professional sealers are basically a wax based paint.
Others have posted a lot of good information, but if all you want to do is a simple scaling job you can use a normal tape measure and a scale table. It's not as fast a a scaling stick, but works just as well. I keep a couple fancy ones around for when the stick is playing hide and seek.
- Location
- NW Indiana
We have 3 log buyers that we deal with and every time that we get a full semi load we call all 3 of them in to give us a price for the logs. We sell to the highest bidder. We found that this method keeps them honest. We were dealing with just one buyer for a while and it seemed like his prices kept getting lower and lower so we contacted some other buyers and use this method now. Last year we sold $18000 worth of logs.
- Location
- Grand Marais, MN
Thanks.
I sealed the ends pretty soon after felling. Had her rolled-up onto ricks. It's late winter even thought we have borers, not too much evidence....today I chunked her down to 30" sections, it wasn't with a clear conscience or healthy disposition. Bought a log splitter, figured at the minimum I have lot's of gift firewood for special nights or at least next Winter's cozy evenings.
I tried for many hours, days, and phone calls. Being I'm not interested in building a home in the U.S., I wasn't interested in paying the quoted rates for processing. It was flawless.
I sealed the ends pretty soon after felling. Had her rolled-up onto ricks. It's late winter even thought we have borers, not too much evidence....today I chunked her down to 30" sections, it wasn't with a clear conscience or healthy disposition. Bought a log splitter, figured at the minimum I have lot's of gift firewood for special nights or at least next Winter's cozy evenings.
I tried for many hours, days, and phone calls. Being I'm not interested in building a home in the U.S., I wasn't interested in paying the quoted rates for processing. It was flawless.
