Costs of running a legal business

A while back I was talking to John of Muskus tree; had a worker he had picked up one of the Spanish speaking ones deliberately sticking his hand and finger webbing into a saw, got a cut, went to the hospital and then had a lawyer contact John which completely unraveled him and he started shouting at the lawyer. Years before he had a worker from S.A. walk into the path of a falling tree being taken out in a bodybag, not something any tree company wants to face! Covered by insurance, premiums get the money anyway in the end.
 
ATH said:
Is that where the company started? What kind of equipment costs do you have? What is the value of the contract with the utility?

I'm not saying that $20K isn't a big number...but was that a small business startup cost???

5.5% is really cheap workers comp...
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That insurance cost was for us to get started in utility works, the price doesn’t change with increased turnover, staff etc. cost was high to insure us to work along side the transmission 550kv lines.

On a month by month plan it costs $1800 so manageable as a start up.
We started with 4 blokes as a specialised climbing crew, with a beat up old chipper and truck in April this year.
We now have 8 full time employees, 3 50ft towers, 2 chippers and 3 chipper trucks
 
Did you have contracts before needing to make the first insurance payment?

Would you have the contracts without having liability insurance?
 
I just got my Washington LNI prices for 2019.. perfect record and had a sweet note that my safety factor has gone down since I’ve been so good. But with the rate increase my employees cost more. Just over $5 and hour per head across the board. Now I have a shop rate, which is MUCH lower but I cannot split the day! If a saw is started the whole day is 5$ an hour..
 
ATH said:
I got WC comp pretty quickly as I recall. Started out by myself, but for the application in anyhow. I had it for at least several months before hiring anyone. Guess I was fortunate in that regard.

Do they have a "grace" period where you are waiting for the approvals???
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That may have been my mistake. Being an owner operator (when working by myself) I opted not to get coverage which is a choice I have. I contacted 4 agents before one laughed at me and said I had no choice but to go through the state. When talking with the state they said I had to hire first, and gave me half a redwood of paperwork. Hired and sent it in... they rejected it because I was missing the other half of the tree... that they didn’t send me. Once they had the second round of paperwork it was 3 days maybe. But they are wackiness me 38% which is terribly high.
 
ATH said:
Did you have contracts before needing to make the first insurance payment?

Would you have the contracts without having liability insurance?
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All my contractors are really great so no we did not have contracts in place before, but it was required to have one before they would approve the policy so they could determine if they were employees or contractors. Most, I actually hire them for the service they provide just like any homeowner (logs, treatments, stumps etc.). And even now the contacts are really just a formality the hand shake and our word means more than any paper to me.

I don’t think I understand the second question. When I started out I worked for about 3 months before I got GL and I’ve had it ever since. Even as a pick up truck and a saw I had GL. For contractors, contracts are new for us. For clients we started softly about 2.5 years ago.

Edit: Disregard the layout was funny I didn’t see the post you were asking this about!
 
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evo said:
I just got my Washington LNI prices for 2019.. perfect record and had a sweet note that my safety factor has gone down since I’ve been so good. But with the rate increase my employees cost more. Just over $5 and hour per head across the board. Now I have a shop rate, which is MUCH lower but I cannot split the day! If a saw is started the whole day is 5$ an hour..
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@evo

fwiw, I have the following risk classes on my LNI W.C. account for employees,
Tree Care
Landscape
Stump grinding
Shop Maint (@ permanent shop location)
Contract Estimation


Schedule your shop days before you need them, so you can make a whole day of it. I get caught up in shop work in the morning to catch up on sharp chains into the truck, unloading material off a trailer we need for that day, etc, paying Tree Care rates. I try not to.

If we don't use chainsaws, go off the ground, no chippers, or stump grinders, it Landscape Maintenance. Sometimes, a big project has a day of mobilizing out equipment, final tidying, hauling out dirty rakings that don't get chipped or have a home in the forest, etc. Landscape Maintenance work.

My insurance covers landscape maintenance, fruit trees are less than 12', and not always chipped, so as best I know, barring chainsaws, its landscape maintenance.

Something like a 12' rule (look at commercial property trees) makes it go to Tree Care, not Landscape Maintenance.


You might be able to fine tune some stuff, talking to your account manager at Labor and Industries, and working your schedule to fit that in-ability to split risk classes when including tree work in the day.
 
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ATH said:
Did you have contracts before needing to make the first insurance payment?

Would you have the contracts without having liability insurance?
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Needed to make first payment before contracts were approved.
Without the required insurance there is no contracts.

Line clearance work here is super regulated, yearly refreshers for all training modules, yearly roadworthy on all heavy vehicles. 6monthly testing of ewp.
Need to provide certificate of currency for insurance on all vehicles and workcover.

Weekly safety and vehicle audits, all crews are monitored via gps.

The upside to it all is that it provides year round work for a whole heap of tree guys, consistent work and income allow us to keep improving equipment and provide a better work environment
 
There are many landscaper type jobs you don't need all the insurance for, or licenses for that matter. I knew a landscaper 20 years ago who used to make a lot about all his licenses, and legal guys, why he was charging a lot more, and that's all well and good, but for cutting grass and basic work on properties it seemed excessive, and the customers laughed about it and some found cheaper crews. Last year a woman called me for log splitting and asked whether I had insurance for that, what for? I told her plainly I didn't have it. You don't damage properties usually splitting logs, so not sure what the fear is unless it is about hurting myself. Years ago splitters were not made as well and with all the splitting accidents the state mandated no automatic return (detent) valves.
 
You don't pay for the business expenses, the right customer does, who is charged accordingly by You.

The insurance covers the customers savings, house, assets, along with yours.


How much assets do you have to protect, Tom? How much to pay for damages? What if you do get hurt?


Bump into something, getting hurt cutting a piece of firewood to size , using high power, gasoline fueled tools. Slip, trip, poke, break, twist.

I know a guy who lost an eye from, not falling a tree, not from back-chaining his hinge whiskers off. Got a sliver in the eye shaving off the hinge whiskers, presumably bottom-barring it.

One-eye Guy.
 
southsoundtree said:
You don't pay for the business expenses, the right customer does, who is charged accordingly by You.

The insurance covers the customers savings, house, assets, along with yours.


How much assets do you have to protect, Tom? How much to pay for damages? What if you do get hurt?


Bump into something, getting hurt cutting a piece of firewood to size , using high power, gasoline fueled tools. Slip, trip, poke, break, twist.

I know a guy who lost an eye from, not falling a tree, not from back-chaining his hinge whiskers off. Got a sliver in the eye shaving off the hinge whiskers, presumably bottom-barring it.

One-eye Guy.
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You could map out potential risks and how you would pay for them. Catastrophic health insurance is a feature of the safety net most people can access; they may have to get a top notch social worker get them signed up if they are below the income/asset line, but that is an option. I know plenty of people who are 100% covered by Medicare/Medicaid, they are the million dollar babies who are always getting doctor visits, meds., meals on wheels, other free stuff. They are like zombies, have regressed to their teen age years in terms of brain activity and other functions. I live with an older sister like that who is refusing dialysis, but seems to realize how necessary it is.

No I would rather trust God for my daily bread instead of Caesar and be his slave. But you have to put in your effort, not eating junk food, staying physically healthy, do your part. Sickcare is for those who need it.
 
southsoundtree said:
Does that mean no appreciable assets to protect?
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There are 1001 ways to protect yourself against lawsuits. Someone owes me around $5K that I have a judgment against but can't collect on. If you are justly sued you should negotiate a settlement.

If you want assets that are hard to collect on precious metals are an excellent option.
 
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Here is another fun fact...insurance that doesn't protect much and protects against very unlikely incidents is very cheap. I feel it is the least I owe to my clients to make sure that they are protected.

Frankly, I don't care if you have insurance to protect yourself...as long as you don't expect somebody else to pay - hence the individual mandate in health care. Not wanting to be political about ACA, but the reason the law requires everybody to have insurance is because hospitals are required to treat regardless of ability to pay. If you protect your property with your own cash instead of insurance, there is a good chance that you will be ahead in the long-term. The problem is if you lose an expensive asset early on, that can be hard to recover from.
 
My brother is always wagging his finger on all the health problems that you need assets for; in his case the reckless youth is largely responsible for many of his health problems, with lots of hardcore drugs, alcoholism, and similarly high risk behavior. He had migraines, no one else in the family ever had that, which shows how many conditions are not genetic. In his 30 plus years of recovery in AA and NA, he has been careful and responsible in his health, also a part of many other people's recoveries. Unfortunately he is something of a paddle and regular tennis addict, so had lots of shoulder problems, etc.. Most expensive health issues are preventable.

With log splitting I am always 100% focused, and would not want to work if I am not up to the task. Sure things could happen but that would be on me. I have never heard of a split log risking a property.
 
Not sure what the wood is like to split over there and what the laws are like.

Hear in aus, it’s not uncommon for a knotty shitty bit of hard to fly out the splitter 30ft or more, possibly injuring a passer by or property.
Also if we are set up working whether cutting grass, painting a fence or dropping the worlds largest tree, if someone were to walk into our job site and trip on a crack in the pavement they can sue
 
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