Complete and Utter Hypocrisy

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What might be a good idea would be to have one specific place where this discussion can occur. Maybe the itcc website. Is there a discussion board there? I am currently 0 for 6 on SRT submissions not including rope wrench. Those were all submissions using gear designed for rope work. There has been a reversal of decisions regarding some of these submissions. I believe the kong robot and hydrobot are excellent climbing and rope tools, as is the conterra scarab. The petzl tools are widely understood. The Unicender now has years of accident free use, is manufactured by a highly respected US company. I cant believe all these techniques have no place in the championships. And countless ther techniques yet to be innovated. The system needs to be designed to keep the new techniques flowing and incouraging innovation at the local chapter level.
 
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Didjon, i know i have submitted complaints about that particular rule in 2011. Should i submit again in 2012? One of the things about that rule is it specifically uses the word " ascent" line.

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I'm not sure what rule book your using treebing but the rule we have been discussing is 2.2.22(2011)version 2.2.23(2012)revision I will not bother to write it down go look for youself. There is absolutely no mention of the word Ascent in the rule!!!!!
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I have no more comments about this subject,


Regards
¨Didj
 
I thought we were referring to this rule. Sorry. This is the other rule that has been mentioned to me.


Contestants may work from a static ascending line provided that a separate, approved overhead climbing system is anchored to the static ascending line. Neither an engaged, frame loaded toothed ascender nor a cam-loaded non-toothed ascender shall be permitted within this anchoring system. Fall-protection anchoring systems must include an approved stopper knot, or hitch on the static line below the anchoring system, unless the climbing system is directly connected to an approved knot in the access line. Techniques for working from a static line with an anchoring system attached to the static line must be demonstrated prior to use and during gear inspection, and must have prior approval of the head technician.
 
there are clearly issues with the rule 2.2.22 as descending with a friction hitch in conjunction with some sort of descending device is as old as climbing. One of the first techniques I was taught to work a spar.
 
[quote...I have no more comments about this subject,


Regards
¨Didj

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"So let it be said, so let it be written."

Not a great way to reduce the "them vs us" attitudes.

Dave
 
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I can also assure you Blinky I am very much in touch with whats going on,the few people on buzz that are discussing this issue although you maybe suprised,are not the majority of the industry.

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Are you? Really? I could have sworn this was a thread about that very subject and it's being read by a great many people internationally.

No this isn't the majority of the industry but it IS a group of very deeply involved people who care about it's future.

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If rules are to be changed then there is a process which is quite clearly stated on the ITCC website. There has not been a call for a review of this rule by anyone this year. So my comment stands no one has a problem with the rule.

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Are you saying the only way you could possibly know that this rule deserves critical review is if someone fills out a form for you? REALLY!!? Has it actually come to this?

Okay guys, THE ISA HAS NO IDEA THAT THIS RULE IS PROBLEMATIC, THEY ARE APPARENTLY CLUELESS. Bizarre as that seems, that's what the man said.
Which ones of you knuckle draggers can write? The ISA can't hear you unless you submit their forms and what not. IF you can find the right form... which is often tricky in situations like this, fill the damn thing out and send it in. Don't count on your buddy doing it, do your own.

Welcome to American politics y'all.


Wait, do we have to mail it somewhere or is a digital copy too new to meet approval?
 
I just did this, took less than five minutes... let's do our part and see if they will respond. The more the better, if you want this changed, this is where to start... sad as that is.

Here's the form...
http://itcc.isa-arbor.com/rules-scoring/ruleChangeForm.aspx


This is the rule...
2.2.22(2011)version 2.2.23(2012)revision

It effectively says that you cannot descend on a hitch without DdRT.

Any of you who've used a Rope wrench or other friction adding technique know this to be outdated. New methods and equipment make such descents safe. It's time to review this rule critically and apply the new knowledge.

People aren't playing around on Rope wrenches, we work on them because they are superior. It's TIME to get this overwith... and that doesn't mean having the people in control telling us to shut up.

I can't believe what I just read this morning... aren't we all supposed to be kindred? Isn't that one of the things that make tree people and TCCs special? Why does this suddenly sound like the US Congress dictating policy to voiceless citizens? Why does it take a letter writing campaign to stimulate some action? WTF?
 
Well...it appears that isa and itcc will be sticking with the status quo.......

http://itcc.isa-arbor.com/rules-scoring/resources/ITCCStatement_RopeWrench_22312.pdf

I can't say that I am even remotely surprised....but ,gee thanks for the effort to address the multitude of other issues that have come up in this thread..

And thanks for the review to take place at itcc....that should sure help the many climbers that would like to use the technique TO EARN THEIR WAY to itcc...I guess the fact that this system was "not submitted for review" last year means that it is officially a NO GO for this year as well....congrats itcc, well done...

Since clearly I am one of "....those less informed to guide the decision making process" I suppose I will just keep the knowledge that I have from long term use of this system to myself as clearly the committee is better "informed" to make the decision..... oh wait, it would be a conflict of interest for me to be involved in the decision anyway
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I believe I will also be keeping my time, energy, money, donations, ideas, and love for the comps to myself as well and focus on other more productive things.....
 
[/ QUOTE ] Why does this suddenly sound like the US Congress dictating policy to voiceless citizens? Why does it take a letter writing campaign to stimulate some action? WTF?


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Letter writing IS usually the best way to solve policy disputes. Especially, when letters are followed by intelligent discussions over alcoholic beverages...
 
It just seems strange that this is such a struggle. One would hope the ISA leadership would embrace new technology rather than trying (unsuccessfully) to stifle it.

I'm just not getting it, I know some of these folks and they aren't pricks. But no one has yet provided an ACTUAL reason other than... 'because we say so'. What's up with that?
 
From what I see, it's more of a "when" than "if" the rope wrench will be allowed. I can see the need for an ordered approach to gear qualification for tcc use.

That being said, that letter had a tone that could be taken as condescending.

SZ
 
Give it time,the rope wrench has only been out a about a year or so(it is marketed as revolutionary).So things like revolutions take time,lots of strategy,planning and just getting the word out.Tree buzz is a small segment of the arborculture community it definitly is not a micrcosm.But more of the cutting edge of arborist that are usually light years ahead of (95 percent of the working climbers in the world).Change takes time and change is scary and possibly dangerous for alot of people so they resist it.I know im guilty of it,but maybe not being hasty about rushing things is a good thing.But the internet is such a double edge sword for information,Sure it gets it out there light years from the past but is equally offensive in nature because of the written word and the failure of face to face interaction. I think in the next couple years it will be allowed just gotta be patient.But heck what do i know ha ha.
 
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From what I see, it's more of a "when" than "if" the rope wrench will be allowed. I can see the need for an ordered approach to gear qualification for tcc use.

That being said, that letter had a tone that could be taken as condescending.

SZ

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I agree.

Of course you all could just give up.

Then we all lose.

Tony
 
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Give it time,the rope wrench has only been out a about a year or so(it is marketed as revolutionary).So things like revolutions take time,lots of strategy,planning and just getting the word out.Tree buzz is a small segment of the arborculture community it definitly is not a micrcosm.But more of the cutting edge of arborist that are usually light years ahead of (95 percent of the working climbers in the world).Change takes time and change is scary and possibly dangerous for alot of people so they resist it.I know im guilty of it,but maybe not being hasty about rushing things is a good thing.But the internet is such a double edge sword for information,Sure it gets it out there light years from the past but is equally offensive in nature because of the written word and the failure of face to face interaction. I think in the next couple years it will be allowed just gotta be patient.But heck what do i know ha ha.

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Again I agree!

Tony
 
I have been sitting back and watching this go on and on. I would like to throw my two cents out there. This is B.S. about the rope wrench and about the powers that be talking about doing all the valid testing and getting all the information for the safety of everyone. Look at all the things that were let fly in the past as "safe" work practices or safe innovative techniques. Not trying to throw you under the bus Mark, but like you said the dual ascenders backing up the dual ascenders. It was approved and for a reason. You could explain why it was backed up and how it worked. Well it's been deemed unsafe. I've heard stories of the dual ascenders being footlocked up without any kind of back up. And now this is disallowed. Kevin has done testing. The proof is in the numbers. The people have spoken and the climbers are using it on a daily basis. I do not know of any failures or accidents from this piece of equipment. Look at the screw lock biners and other stuff that came before. It was the greatest stuff since sliced bread and people used it and it was allowed. Then after the fact it's like oh that's not safe. This has been deemed safe by the people who deploy it on a daily basis. Used properly it is a great tool. Competent judges and techs are where the responsibility will be come game day. That way like all climbing systems it can be inspected and monitored during competition usage. That way it is deployed in a manner that will be safe just as Scotty and the judges did at the CAATCC.
 
Seems like I remember Prophett rolling out of a carabiner and breaking his back about 20 years ago or so, so perhaps he's a bit touchy about 'uninformed' uses of hardware proliferating in the industry? Once bitten twice shy?

jomoco
 
I agree . I've been involved in tcc 'since live bait was aloud for aerial rescue. everything takes time . I had to petetion Al Cherry , than President of the ISA to allow ascenders in comps( PEN DEL) in the early 90's. All this stuff takes time for all to get on board . Relax . The powers that be are in the know , they want the best climber to be the ITTC champ . I think this will be handled , relax . Breathe .......exhaleeeeeeeeeeee after this is passed, trees will be stamped as safe to climb . We allready know that ITCC trees are safe and that all life support crotches in the tree are approved . SRT is the now and an ITTC Champ using the SRT with a wrench is the future .
 
Blinky,
I sent the form in.....
Now I need a shower.... I hate bureaucracy...

You know things are 'up against it' when......
Riggs post is the one with the most 'ZEN' attitude.... ;-)

I don't claim to know anything about why the powers that be are so closed to the approving/disproving this technique.

But I agree that consistent handling would solve this puzzle.


Be safe.
Learn all you can.
 
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