Complete and Utter Hypocrisy

  • Thread starter Thread starter rich_h
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At this point I would almost be happy with a response from the Tech Advisory Committee such as... "we just don't know what standard applies to this truly revolutionary technique so we are going to continue to say no until we have no choice otherwise."......almost happy that is.....

Have any of the climbers known to utilize this tool daily been contacted for their thoughts on this tool? Instead of continuing to think up things that could go wrong with the system it might be time to consider asking people why this system is so RIGHT for them.......

The climbers that have made the conscious choice to assume the risk to try this disallowed system are more than happy to discuss this matter with not only the Tech Advisory Committee but every other climber they feel could use some extra energy at the end of the day......why haven't they been contacted???
 
I would like to hear all thoughts regarding what could go wrong with this system. I have yet to hear any. Has anyone come up with a reason this system could be dangerous, or more dangerous than other techniques. If you allow footlocking and ascender use... The bar is already set pretty dang low...
 
I've asked a number of times to be contacted and be included in discussing srt. I think those that use these techniques need to be able to discuss why it is safe efficient and right for tree work.

Countryboypa31@yahoo.com is my email
717 639 5523 is my number.

I would love to talk about srt. It's a passion of mine
 
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Have any of the climbers known to utilize this tool daily been contacted for their thoughts on this tool? Instead of continuing to think up things that could go wrong with the system it might be time to consider asking people why this system is so RIGHT for them.......

The climbers that have made the conscious choice to assume the risk to try this disallowed system are more than happy to discuss this matter with not only the Tech Advisory Committee but every other climber they feel could use some extra energy at the end of the day......why haven't they been contacted???

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you must have missed this part:

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is a little bit more complicated than writing an instruction manual and have a bunch of climbers play around with it for a while.

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You see you're just playing with it Rich, we all are....however many hundred users that already is. Day-to-day commercial climbing = playing, apparently.
 
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you must have missed this part:

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is a little bit more complicated than writing an instruction manual and have a bunch of climbers play around with it for a while.

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You see you're just playing with it Rich, we all are....however many hundred users that already is. Day-to-day commercial climbing = playing, apparently.

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Still amazed to me though Reg that I get paid for "playing"
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Mind y'all I am just putting a few ideas out there for discussion.

Kevin asked for a way the system could fail:

How about this. You to take a nice swing out. The teather and/or wrench fails. Your knot becomes totally loaded with your body weight and cinches. You do not complete the swing and hang mid air suspended by hitch alone no other friction. You are unable to secure yourself through another means. How do you get down?

Here is another. What if your line/ hitch combo will not hold your body weight the absence of the friction from the rope wrench? Do you test it?. Does it hold consistently every time with every combination you use? Does the holding ability increase or decrease as the rope and hitch wear?

Just my thoughts since Kevin asked.

Tony
 
Kevin
Last year at the CAATCC we allowed it ONLY after the tether was shortened, if you have too long of a tether the potential is there to take a fall and grab the RW and have it come to a vertical alignment and as we all know we grab even harder in this type of situation and the RW is above the hitch at this point and you do not feel the rope or heat from the rope. So I asked Rich if we could shorten the tether so you can not go completely vertical and ( I we as a committee) were happy.

We also did some test to see what would happen if limbs that would fall into the system would do to it. Nothing that does not happen with DRT system.

I do not use it myself but see it as a VERY viable tool.

That said it will be allowed again this year at the CAATCC.

I did come close to saying no before shorting the tether.

With Love Scotty
 
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How about this. You to take a nice swing out. The teather and/or wrench fails. Your knot becomes totally loaded with your body weight and cinches. You do not complete the swing and hang mid air suspended by hitch alone no other friction. You are unable to secure yourself through another means. How do you get down?

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Sounds very similar to footlocking in mid air and getting so worn out that you are frozen in space.. What if you forgot your Figure 8 ???

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Here is another. What if your line/ hitch combo will not hold your body weight the absence of the friction from the rope wrench? Do you test it?. Does it hold consistently every time with every combination you use? Does the holding ability increase or decrease as the rope and hitch wear?

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Sounds very similar to running a hitch on a doubled rope system used with a multi anchor pulley to tend your hitch. Ever see a hitch run into the anchored eye or cinching hitch and open up and stay open ???

Both systems are allowed with caveats that you a. bring a figure 8, b. have a hitch that grabs...

Consistency is all we are asking for....
 
Absolutely tony! Thank you. Your first scenario is valid, although not being able to come down is a very minor problem compared with coming out of the tree too quickly. That would be a minor inconveniece easily solved with a munter hitch or am eight below the hitch. Friction hitches are very important that they engage every time regardless of wrench. Hitches do change quality over time. Stiffer cords on smaller diamter rope etc. I think this an issue already present at the tcc with fottlocking in masters challenges and work climb climbers climbing on super fast and loose hitches.

Scottys point about the tether is the scariest one in my opinion because if the tether is the wrong size there is a potential for entanglement and hitch interference. These are all issues that can be handled at gear inspection.

I would like to know why petzls gear is not allowed for srt work positioning. I asked the petzl reps and they had no idea it was not allowed And they are actively marketing their SRT tools for arborist work positioning. All their gear is certified ten times over. What about the unicender? Has rock been contacted?
I also dont understand why the fate revilver, kong robot, conterra scarab isnt allowed. Maybe if i used the dmm rigging hub and biner as they teach for a trunk belay method, it would fly.
Srt is a broad can of worms and i think that is the fear here. Dumb it down and have everyone climb on the same gear would be much simpler to be sure, but also render the comps irrelevant.
 
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...How about this. You to take a nice swing out. The teather and/or wrench fails.

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Speaking of problems.....what if you are footlocking, your miss a lock, settle on your prusik.....AND IT FAILS ??????


A figure 8 won't do too much for you in that situation...
 
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..We also did some test to see what would happen if limbs that would fall into the system would do to it...

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Once the CAA decided to allow the RW (not my decision due to CLEAR AND OBVIOUS POTENTIAL FOR CONFLICT OF INTEREST) we decided to set up a simulated fall test with the main interest of testing the hitches that any potential RW'er was using with the system...we also included the DdRT climbers in the exact same test so that there would not appear to be any bias towards any one system.

The test was simple and probably not all that scientific...We had the climber stand on a bench and simulate a hip thrust or normal advancement upward. At the apex of the thrust the climber would let go of everything to see if their hitch would hold. (climber was on belay at the time)

What we found was that one climber using the RW had to change their hitch to make sure that it would grab consistently and that one climber using their hitch along with a multi anchor pulley for tending had to adjust their hitch to make sure that it would grab consistently....
 
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...How about this. You to take a nice swing out. The teather and/or wrench fails.

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Speaking of problems.....what if you are footlocking, your miss a lock, settle on your prusik.....AND IT FAILS ??????


A figure 8 won't do too much for you in that situation...

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C'mon Rich. Take it easy on me! I'm just throwing ideas out there.

It has been said that a meteor could land and take out your tree too!!

I am not against SRT for work positioning at the ITCC nor in the real world of tree work. I admire the passion you are all putting behind this. As we all know every climbing system comes with concerns. I was just trying to point a few out no matter how outlandish.

Before you ask I am for helping arborists live longer, and happier and to help trees reach their full potential. If any system does that safely I am a supporter!

In my years competing and helping out I have seen good climbers make silly mistakes. I have witnessed men and women with a great deal of experience unable to tie, dress and set a climbing hitch because they were nervous or rushed or both.
I have watched an experienced climber come totally unsecured from both lanyard and climbing line while performing an aerial rescue at ITCC. The climber was so focused they did not even know until told!

While the scenarios we could develop may seem stupid and 'only a fool would do type of thing' they are useful in evaluation and thinking things through.

It seems to me we have identified today two concerns not brought to light previously in this thread pertaining to rope wrench use: have a system for self rescue and a specific length tether. A step in the right direction no matter how small it may seem!

Let us continue on this path. It is the only fruitful one.

How you respond to drama is a direct reflection of the info you focus on.-Miles McPherson

Tony
 
I haven't taken this as a challenge to show if SRT is better than DdRT. The issues that I've seen is that some innovations are considered on comp day and approved and others have been submitted to the process, rejected, and no explanation of the criteria.

The inequities of this are frustrating to say the least.

There are of examples of this in the past too.


Life isn't fair but it should be just.
 
I don't think that was venom Tony, Rich ain't the venomous type.




I still don't understand how someone in charge of rules with the ETCC can say that they know of NO ONE who has a problem with the 'dynamic overhead belay' rule.

That just sounds disconnected to me. Or am I the only person who thinks that rule should be reviewed?
 
Yes Paul that was how it was meant to read thank you for reading as it is written.
Blinky as Paul already said I was refering to the use of a prusik being used on a static system only,no other friction management applied.
I can also assure you Blinky I am very much in touch with whats going on,the few people on buzz that are discussing this issue although you maybe suprised,are not the majority of the industry. If rules are to be changed then there is a process which is quite clearly stated on the ITCC website. There has not been a call for a review of this rule by anyone this year. So my comment stands no one has a problem with the rule.
If you or anyone else has a problem with this rule then they should use their time to write a recommendation to change it to the ITCC rules committee instead of posting about it here.

http://itcc.isa-arbor.com/rules-scoring/RuleChangeForm.aspx

"If your not part of the solution your part of the problem"
as they say

Regards
Didj
 
Blinky,

The 'venom' I speak of is the he-said, she-said, finger pointing, snide, biased, unsubstantiated comments. I am not saying that all comments have been such. Nor am I pointing fingers at individuals, rather a whole tone. The large majority of posts have been great.

However, I utterly detest the "us vs. them" mentality that seems to be an undercurrent in small parts of this discussion.

It's insulting to me being involved with the ITCC as a technician, head technician, gear inspector and dogs body for over a decade.

In the end this will all pan out. The associated B. S is just that. Useless. Detrimental.

I respect the judgements made here by many individuals. I can only hope mine and others, whether they post or not will be respected as well. I have earnestly tried to live a professional and personal life to earn that respect from all.

As we are all aware as adults there are two sides to every story. Let's stop picking sides and discuss the topics as presented in a spirited way with mutual respect, consideration and aplomb.

If that ain't good enough for you "F" off
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Tony
 
Good post Tony. It is natural to have an us vs them in this situation as there clearly is an us and a them. There is an us that wants to sit at the same table as them and there clearly is some resistance. The resistance maybe valid and some good points have Been raised. I do my best to understand but it is hard sometimes and there clearly is some passion. Climbers are a passionate bunch. This is natural and will be there until we can all sit at the same table. I believe its okay as long as we work to resolve it. I think everyone does want it resolved. Didjon, I know i have submitted complaints about that particular rule in 2011. Should i submit again in 2012? One of the things about that rule is it specifically uses the word " ascent" line. If it is a work positioning line it is not an ascent line. I would never call my line an ascent line. Semantics to be sure, but that is what we are talking about. Clear loop hole.
I also believe treebuzz is a most excellent place to discuss these issues as it is currently the only place to discuss the issues. It is a great tool for having the discussion. Lets use it! Formal submissions are good but as a discussion platform it sucks. It is slow and the language is boring. It has to be done but this is 2012 and we have a great tool in treebuzz and facebook where we can yell and scream and air our frustrations and then still get together at an event and have a blast with our tree loving family. Lets keep the discussion rolling. Keeping it civil but there clearly is a lot to talk about.
 
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