Climbing Harness / Saddles setups (PICS & Video)

[Jan_]

View attachment 57077

My light rec climbing stuff with four different ropes, or a longer 10mm htp not shown.

Interesting gear, your setup is very different than mine. I have a lot of questions:
Is the green drum for throwline storage?
What do you use the thin yellow rope on the left for? It looks like it is thinner than 9mm...
What climbing system do you use?

 

[Brocky]

Correct on the green fly reel.
The yellow rope is Mammut’s 6mm Rap cord that I use with the Smart 2.0 in mostly SRT, using the microscender above it, with Tech cord foot loops. The white rope has a short section of 3/8” Tenex Tec that’s used as a friction hitch. The other two ropes have Oval VT hitches, for now.

 

[B Dietrich]

Brocky, I'm interested in seeing how you use a Microcender in that system. For some time a Microcender was my upper ascender of choice for either a treefrog or RADS setup, but I learned that Petzl says not to use one on a tether. This has made me reluctant to use it that way anymore, although I don't really see the problem. I suspect Petzl's prohibition on tethers is based on using the Microcender for fall arrest, or something.

 

[moss]

Brocky, I'm interested in seeing how you use a Microcender in that system. For some time a Microcender was my upper ascender of choice for either a treefrog or RADS setup, but I learned that Petzl says not to use one on a tether. This has made me reluctant to use it that way anymore, although I don't really see the problem. I suspect Petzl's prohibition on tethers is based on using the Microcender for fall arrest, or something.

I used an approximately 6" tether on my Microcender for years, Used it as my primary life support ascending SRT, backed with a hitch below it. Yes, I believe the Microcender tether warning is in regard to the fall factor load increase danger with every inch of tether. The way I used the Microcender there was no "fall factor" load increase that was going to happen no matter how long or short the tether was. In a RADS the upper or redirect rope clamp isn't life support so tethering a Microcender is a zero issue.
-AJ

 

[Brocky]

With the Smart2.0, it’s a sit-stand SRT system. The Microscender is above it and just has the foot loops on it.

 

[CanadianStan]

With the Smart2.0, it’s a sit-stand SRT system. The Microscender is above it and just has the foot loops on it.

Smart Are you gaining considerable weight savings by climbing on double 6mm instead of single 10mm ?

 

[Brocky]

The ropes are all different lengths and weigh about the same.

 

[B Dietrich]

With the Smart2.0, it’s a sit-stand SRT system. The Microscender is above it and just has the foot loops on it.

So, is it essentially a RADS set-up you're using it in? When I use the Microcender in a RADS system I still have a tether attachment so it acts as a back-up for (in my case) the Grigri. Maybe I'm being too paranoid?

I used an approximately 6" tether on my Microcender for years, Used it as my primary life support ascending SRT, backed with a hitch below it. Yes, I believe the Microcender tether warning is in regard to the fall factor load increase danger with every inch of tether. The way I used the Microcender there was no "fall factor" load increase that was going to happen no matter how long or short the tether was. In a RADS the upper or redirect rope clamp isn't life support so tethering a Microcender is a zero issue.
-AJ

I guess I'm making it (potentially) life-supporting by using the tether. I do the same thing when I use it in a treefrog configuration -- in ordinary circumstances it only holds the footloop, but if the chest ascender fails I'm hoping it will catch me. I don't personally see the danger in using the Microcender this way, because the tether never gets more slack than what is created from taking one step up on the rope, so the fall factor is minor, and the bight of tether never goes over the cam, or otherwise gets in a position to foul the device. However, we don't know what we don't know, right, so just because it seems safe to me, doesn't mean that Petzl is incorrect in saying my usage is dangerous. I'd feel much better if people more expert than me gave me permission to continue using my Microcender this way!

 

[moss]

My take is the Microcender is intended as a positioning and progress capture tool but not to catch falls. In tree climbing we don't fall, at least that's our game plan. In rock or alpine climbing falling is expected. I believe this is a case where the warning is to cover the most common expected use of the device. A tether amplifies fall factor loading on the rope device, if the way you're climbing in trees is not going to create fall factor loading scenarios then the tether issue becomes irrelevant. Once again we call to the Richard Mumford Benevolent Break Testing Institute to rescue us and test what happens when a tethered Microcender is hit by severe shock loading ;-)
-AJ

 

[Brocky]

No, not RADS, no mechanical advantage.

 

[B Dietrich]

My take is the Microcender is intended as a positioning and progress capture tool but not to catch falls.
-AJ

Catching falls is definitely one thing Microcenders are supposed to be for (when climbing rock, anyway), because suggested uses include backing up a belay, and self-belaying when top-roping. One of the advantages claimed in that application is that the cam is toothless, therefore it will slip a bit when loaded, reducing the shock load and damage to the rope.

Of course, that doesn't neccessarily mean much to us, as they are probably talking about use on dynamic rope. Interestingly, they recommend the device be attached directly to the harness with a carabiner, and it seems to me that could be problematic in forcing the Microcender into an undesirable attitude or position, whereas using a tether (especially a short one, as you mentioned) would allow some twisting and movement that wouldn't disturb the device, kind of like a swivel.

If Mr. Mumford wanted to test this, it would be great! However, I'm not offering up my Microcender for the experiment -- I'm too fond of it!

 

[B Dietrich]

No, not RADS, no mechanical advantage.

I have the RADS system rigged like you describe, with the footloops hanging from the top ascender, therefore it is a sit-stand system without mechanical advantage. I think the mechanical advantage only applies when you are hoisting yourself up by the downrope, no?

 

[moss]

Catching falls is definitely one thing Microcenders are supposed to be for (when climbing rock, anyway), because suggested uses include backing up a belay, and self-belaying when top-roping. One of the advantages claimed in that application is that the cam is toothless, therefore it will slip a bit when loaded, reducing the shock load and damage to the rope.

Of course, that doesn't neccessarily mean much to us, as they are probably talking about use on dynamic rope. Interestingly, they recommend the device be attached directly to the harness with a carabiner, and it seems to me that could be problematic in forcing the Microcender into an undesirable attitude or position, whereas using a tether (especially a short one, as you mentioned) would allow some twisting and movement that wouldn't disturb the device, kind of like a swivel.

If Mr. Mumford wanted to test this, it would be great! However, I'm not offering up my Microcender for the experiment -- I'm too fond of it!

Ok, makes even more sense and I feel even safer about my use. If for example you were self-belaying on a lead or top rope climb and you had a tether on the Microcender you would absolutely increase your fall factor value with a tether in the mix.
-AJ

 

[Brocky]

RADS is taking the down rope after it goes through the descender, typically a gri gri, putting it through a pulley attached to the Microscender, or usually a hand ascender.

The belay backup sounds more like what the Shunt does.

 

[Acerxharlowii]

My new(er) harness can be seen at 11:12 in the video below.

Where do you live bob?

 

[Acerxharlowii]

@Acerxharlowii - Southeast Ohio near Zanesville, which is about a hour east of Columbus.

Cool. I’m in wisco if we were closer I’d do a climb with ya

 

[B Dietrich]

RADS is taking the down rope after it goes through the descender, typically a gri gri, putting it through a pulley attached to the Microscender, or usually a hand ascender.

The belay backup sounds more like what the Shunt does.

Oh, I know full well what a RADS configuration is, my point was just that if you are using it with the footloops hanging from the upper ascender, then it is a sit-stand system without mechanical advantage.

Using a Microcender for belay backup is a suggested use by Petzl, not me! There is actually a fair bit of overlap between the Microcender and the Shunt in terms of suggested uses, and it's interesting that you mention it, because my use of the Microcender as an upper ascender came via using the Shunt. Many years ago I learned on TreeBuzz from Tom Dunlap that a Shunt works well in a RADS configuration, because if you attach a "leash" between your saddle and the body of the Shunt (not the cam) for descending, the Shunt will just follow you down, and you don't have to remove it. I tried it and liked the process, but never liked the Shunt as much as I liked the Microcender, so I experimented and found that they worked much the same. The way I now use the Microcender as an upper ascender for either RADS (which I rarely use anymore) or a treefrog system, is to have a tether between saddle and cam so the lower device is backed up when ascending, then for descent I just switch the tether attachment from the cam to the body, and the Microcender just follows me down the rope.

Being quite happy with the arrangement, I was disappointed to read that Petzl disapproves of the use of a tether with the device, hence my questions here. Moss has convinced me, though, that it is probably okay to continue using it the way I have been. Don't worry, Andrew, I have instructed my loved ones that if there is ever an inquest, they are not to mention your name!

 

[Brocky]

Without the mechanical advantage it’s not a RADS. From On Rope, I’m using a mechanical Texas System. They also suggest to be connected to both devices, I don’t connect to the Microscender, only the Smart 2.0.

 

[climbstihl]

Hey Brocky, what is the purpose of the wooden blocks on your ropes?

 

[Brocky]

The Cinch Samaritans make it easier to compress small diameter hitches to descend.