Climbers for Christ

The Golden Rule comes from God's Word Matthew 7:12

I have stated some of what I believe about morality in an earlier post but this passage does a better job explaining it. : "Even when Gentiles, who do not have God's written law, instinctively follow what the law says, they show that in their hearts they know right from wrong. They demonstrate that God's law is written within them, for their own consciences either accuse them or tell them they are doing what is right." Romans 2:14-15 NLT
 
"...though Christianity seems at first to be all about morality, all about duties, and rules and guilt and virtue, yet it leads you on, out of all that, into something beyond. One has a glimpse of a country where they do not talk of those things, except perhaps as a joke. Everyone there is filled full of what we should call goodness. They do not call it anything. They are not thinking of it. They are too busy looking at the source from which it comes." C.S. Lewis
 
"instinctively follow what the law says, they show that in their hearts they know right from wrong. They demonstrate that God's law is written within them, for their own consciences either accuse them or tell them they are doing what is right." Romans 2:14-15 NLT"


why do we need god to tell us if we know already instinctively? Isn't this proving Christianity irrelevant?
 
"instinctively follow what the law says, they show that in their hearts they know right from wrong. They demonstrate that God's law is written within them, for their own consciences either accuse them or tell them they are doing what is right." Romans 2:14-15 NLT"


why do we need god to tell us if we know already instinctively? Isn't this proving Christianity irrelevant?

The point is that all men have the law of God instinctively in their conscience. That is obvious.The Christian's objection to an atheistic worldview is that you cannot have a standard of ethics and morality to stand on when all we are as humans(in the atheistic worldview) is random matter floating around in space bumping in to each other. How can you have morality without God?
If all we are is random stardust created out of nothing, by chance, how can you say one thing is wrong and another thing isn't?


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If we already have morality "instinctively" why do we need to tell us? Wouldn't we just do right because it is right? And we know that instinctively? Obviously not everyone will choose that, but why do we need god in this equation? You know what is right, either do it or don't.
 
I've resisted chiming in on this derail of the thread, but this discussion highlights some my biggest concerns with the anti-God mindset.

You would think that as humans have evolved physically that they would also evolve socially. However, we don't see much of that, do we? For example, if people got mad at one another in the stone age, they would hit or throw rocks at each other. Today, after a million years of evolution, we still hit and throw rocks (small metal ones) when we get mad.

From an evolutionary standpoint, shouldn't we let Ebola, AIDS, and other extreme diseases run their course? Most infectious diseases are best mitigated with behavioral changes. Pure Natural Selection would dictate that the weaker, dumber of the species simply die off if they make the wrong choices. An argument against doing that to preserve culture doesn't even meet humanistic standards.

This is the type of rationale it takes to make many of the arguments above on both sides!

I don't believe in shoving belief systems down anyone's throat. Asking for a basis of morality shouldn't be offensive to anyone. It's a fair question. Just because my answer is different from yours doesn't mean I'm irrational, nor that you are necessarily wrong. However, dismissive attitudes do get old.

I happen to believe that there is a Creator who does things that I don't understand. If He can create a grown man, He can create a grown universe. How evolution plays into that doesn't concern me near as much as the way that we know HOW gravity works, but don't have a clue as to WHY it works.

Life is precious. I didn't really learn that from the Bible, my parents, or from institutional instruction. I learned that with the birth of my first child. I heard it from various sources, and probably should have learned it from several encounters (injury, near-death, etc.), but it never clicked until I saw my son for the first time. Similarly, my faith didn't really come from my actions or things people told me. It came from a personal experience that I cannot deny.

Circling back to the actual intent of the original post: I'm headed to Texas to help people with storm damage. There is no charge for my services, they were paid for 2000 years ago. If you want to be a climber for Christ, I invite you to join me. If you prefer to do it just to help out that's cool too. You don't have to have my motivation to be kind to others.
 
The Golden Rule comes from God's Word Matthew 7:12

It was borrowed. The virgin birth, the serpent, life after death, etc. Every major tale in the bible is borrowed from earlier cultures and religions.

563-483 BC Buddha in India teaches compassion and shunning unhealthy desires. His golden rule says: "There is nothing dearer to man than himself; therefore, as it is the same thing that is dear to you and to others, hurt not others with what pains yourself" (Dhammapada, Northern Canon, 5:18).

551-479 BC Confucius sums up his teaching as: "Don't do to others what you don't want them to do to you." (Analects 15:23)

500 BC Jainism, a religion of India that promotes non-violence, compassion, and the sacredness of life, teaches the golden rule: "A monk should treat all beings as he himself would be treated." (Jaina Sutras, Sutrakritanga, bk. 1, 10:1-3)
 
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I am not surprised that there are other Religions with moral statements that resemble the golden rule after all God has given them a conscience. As far as timing goes in the Matthew 7:12 passage Jesus refers back to the law and prophets as teaching it. Enoch is the earliest prophet that the Bible mentions being the seventh from Adam (Jude 1:14). Unless we look at Christ Himself who existed from the beginning even though he came in the flesh some 2000 years ago (John 1:1-3, John 14-15, John 8:58) If you are trying to use actual manuscript dates to try to prove who had knowledge or morality first then you are on a wild goose chase as existing manuscripts can have copies and originals can be lost. Just because one culture might happen to have an older surviving account of an event does not prove or disprove the Bible. The fact that multiple cultures have flood stories can actually give credence to the validity of the Genesis account of the flood that covered the earth.
 
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All the stories together would point to a single event in history. Kind of like a crime scene where there are multiple witnesses to the same event. http://www.icr.org/article/why-does-nearly-every-culture-have-tradition-globa/

"What year did Jehovah create the universe?" No idea, although my personal belief is that each day was a literal 24hr period. After each day is completed Genesis says "And there was evening and there was morning, the __ day."
 
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As a Christian and a previous member of this discussion; what point has all this discussing gotten anyone? Has anyone changed their ideas in one direction or another? Has this discussion benefitted any of you, religious or non-religious? If the answer is no, then maybe it is time to just be arborist and tree men. The horse has been beaten until quite dead. One of my ground guys said it best: Tim: "Jeff, We heard you praying while you were taking down that widow maker." Me "That is really embarrassing, I didn't know you could hear me. I bet they all think I'm crazy?" Tim: "They asked me what you were doing and I told them you were getting your house in order in case the time had come to meet the man." I said "What did they think of that?" He said "Well all people of the world think we are crazy!" LOL Be crazy follow your heart wherever that leads and be a good human if you can.
 
As a Christian and a previous member of this discussion; what point has all this discussing gotten anyone? Has anyone changed their ideas in one direction or another? Has this discussion benefitted any of you, religious or non-religious? If the answer is no, then maybe it is time to just be arborist and tree men. The horse has been beaten until quite dead. One of my ground guys said it best: Tim: "Jeff, We heard you praying while you were taking down that widow maker." Me "That is really embarrassing, I didn't know you could hear me. I bet they all think I'm crazy?" Tim: "They asked me what you were doing and I told them you were getting your house in order in case the time had come to meet the man." I said "What did they think of that?" He said "Well all people of the world think we are crazy!" LOL Be crazy follow your heart wherever that leads and be a good human if you can.
Well Jeff, why is our discussion bothering you? Are you ashamed of the gospel? I have found this discussion interesting especially in the last few pages. Mr. Dunlap has stated that you don't have to follow this thread if you don't want to. As for your last statement, "... follow your heart wherever that leads you and be a good human if you can." That sounds like the theme of every Disney Movie. The problem is humans are not basically good according to God's standard and morality can not save us.
 
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Well Jeff, why is our discussion bothering you? Are you ashamed of the gospel? I have found this discussion interesting especially in the last few pages. Mr. Dunlap has stated that you don't have to follow this thread if you don't want to. As for your last statement, "... follow your heart wherever that leads you and be a good human if you can." That sounds like the theme of every Disney Movie. The problem is humans are not basically good according to God's standard and morality can not save us.

The problem I have with your statement that 'humans are not basically good' is that your religion, including your god..............

..............are creations of humans. No evidence of a god being involved.
 

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