Catalpa preservation: Historic

[mrtree]

Ah Happyclimbing, my exactly comment was in response to Vanden's post prior to yours. You managed to post while I was writing, it was not meant for you.

That being said your post is interesting, but is generally the climber calling themselves an arborist who is the accusatory one. How can an arborist not understand mulching and soil biology? You state "It's understandible that the potentially greater population (of less educated technicians) may not realize the benefits of mulching nearly as well as the smaller population of more educated scientists. It suggests inexperience and lack of training" what is suggests is a person how is more concerned with climbing skills and chainsaw use than understanding the organism they are working on. This is my concern, we are more interested in hands on skills than using our minds. The ISA certification, Arbormasters, ATC, etc. seek to promote climbing as the way to be an arborist.

People like Brudi, Wessoly, Fay, Dunster etc. have worked to promote understanding. Shigo said it best "Touch Trees"

I believe that Rachel Carson made a statement in 1969 (or so) that said something to the effect we must show people wild things, fore they cannot seek to preserve that which they don't know.

 

[Happyclimbing]

[ QUOTE ]
Ah Happyclimbing, my exactly comment was in response to Vanden's post prior to yours. You managed to post while I was writing, it was not meant for you.

That being said your post is interesting, but is generally the climber calling themselves an arborist who is the accusatory one. How can an arborist not understand mulching and soil biology? You state "It's understandible that the potentially greater population (of less educated technicians) may not realize the benefits of mulching nearly as well as the smaller population of more educated scientists. It suggests inexperience and lack of training" what is suggests is a person how is more concerned with climbing skills and chainsaw use than understanding the organism they are working on. This is my concern, we are more interested in hands on skills than using our minds. The ISA certification, Arbormasters, ATC, etc. seek to promote climbing as the way to be an arborist.

People like Brudi, Wessoly, Fay, Dunster etc. have worked to promote understanding. Shigo said it best "Touch Trees"

I believe that Rachel Carson made a statement in 1969 (or so) that said something to the effect we must show people wild things, fore they cannot seek to preserve that which they don't know.

[/ QUOTE ]



I was suggesting that you might teach more than seize opportunities to show disdain for others with whom you really have so much in common. But I guess you won't go there. Sorry...

 

[mrtree]

Oh I will start teaching in December, its mot worth trying here, look at the number of hits on this thread compared with others.

If you wish to learn the benefits of mulching just read the text I have already mentioned.

 

[Happyclimbing]

That's more of that great attitude! I guess I will read the literature that you suggest...I understand why mulching is more beneficial to the trees. Interestingly, I only remember one domain of the ISA test being devoted solely to climbing. I think there was one on saw use too, but there are something like 15 domains and most deal with things like tree/soil relations, biology, construction, all things I am sure are within your realm of expertise. As far as arbormaster goes, it's ludicrus to suggest that they are doing anything but increasing safety in the industry. I don't understand the attack on them. Are they supposed to be leading researchers too? You pretty much prove that in order to be on the level that you are academically, you will be in a certain minority if you are an accomplished climber/rigging technician. The time required to put into school would almost certainly prohibit you from putting in grueling days climbing and then recovering from those big days. Maybe it's your understanding of climbers that I'm questioning here, maybe it's your understanding of small scale economies (like those of an individual or family unit). I think the amount of money that guys spend on gear in order to save thier bodies from the effects of gravity, friction, etc, may keep them from spending it on your book. It's too bad you weren't really in a mood for me today. I was hoping to learn something and rise above your description of us, the "so-called arborists". I suppose that I just reinforced your already bleak opinion of the guys and gals who make your job much easier. We who desire more out of our careers as technicians are going to have to learn as much as possible to be scientific in our recommendations. I wonder if your students find you thrilling, exciting and motivating to learn more? For some reason I doubt it.

 

[mdvaden]

[ QUOTE ]
What's the point here? I thought that this thread was about the restoration of an historic Catalpa. It seems to have devolved into an accusatory thread where by people without the proper credentials, or thinking,

[/ QUOTE ]

Your reply was headed by Re: mdvaden, so I'm guessing you replied to what I wrote.

What mrtree reminded me of was the abundance of posts for various kinds of topics.

That's why I wrote "almost" exactly. Had I referred to all he wrote, I'd have omitted the "almost".

The reply had nothing at all to do with credentials, etc..

Not my reply, anyhow.

 

[Happyclimbing]

Nope, MDVADEN, I am sorry to be confusing. I was taking issue with MRTREE's comments about uneducated "so-called" arborists who happen to be the ones who climb, and might like gear, and talking about it. Again, sorry for the confusion.

 

[sean_freeman]

Fella's you doing it again reading into someones post what in all probability is not there.

If we were actually speaking to each other the tone and meter of our speech would largely (along with body language) convey our emotional state and our "position" on a topic or staement, without those cues we tend to put into the written word our own existing perspective (based on

????) and in doing so can end up prejudging people unfairly.

I climb almost every day, and cut (sadly) but I also consult every week, write reports and long term 10-50yr management plans for tree care. I don't find what mrtree wrote offensive, I tend to feel that overall, across the population of working Arborists he is probaly correct we focus way too much on the big bangs for your buck aspect of our work, and undersell, or rather undervalue the importance and relevance of very simple very cheap and very very effective practices such as removing turf and sreading composted wood chip from the same species of tree drenched with compost tea and beneficial fungi.

I'm not the sharpest knife in the cutlery draw, its taken 42yrs to get to where I am now, (and still a long way to go!

) hopefully some of you may get there quicker.

 

[mrtree]

Happyclimbing why don't you read the posts on this and other boards, read the magazines, attend seminars, etc., etc., for years, and then use the deductive abilities that you gained in your BA to start connecting the dots. I think you will maybe understand what I am pointing out. You can love climbing and all its gear but it is the climbing "arborist" who most needs education and to touch trees. They are the individuals who are dealing with the most trees. They are the ones who can save the most trees, not managers, consultants, etc.

 

[guymayor]

[ QUOTE ]
composted woodchips preferrably from the same species spread over a grass free root plate is the best treatment bar none...however more often than not as advisors we are not in a position to force clients to remove the weed they adore so much as a ground cover so using compost teas and other microbial products is an acceptable second or third best scenario.

[/ QUOTE ]Sean, how about a compromise, bestofbothworlds approach?Aerate with a pick to fracture the soil laterally and vertically, then stuff the holes with composting woodchips, then blast the holes with water to inject those cracks with bioactivity and carbon.
Sure, just by surface spreading it will penetrate down a foot--in 10 years or so. But some trees can't wait.[ QUOTE ]
....you have to do the soil and root environment test first otherwise it is just snake oil.

[/ QUOTE ]And that starts easily with a soil probe. Mario how deep does that golf hole cutter thingy go?

"I don't think there are any fine details really."
mr and Happy, I once heard 2 solid recommendations:

1. Don't sweat the small stuff.

2. Realize it's all small stuff.

Please take it easy

or take it outside ok? Thank you.

 

[mdvaden]

[ QUOTE ]
Mario how deep does that golf hole cutter thingy go?


[/ QUOTE ]

Well, my main use was to get a clean manicure look using it to cut the initial hole.

As for soil sample, I was mainly referring to just a shallow sample, and I really like the VISUAL samples it extracts - its really easy to see horizons / layers.

Not sure if you've seen a sample out of a green, but the plug is really cool to examine compared to a tiny core like is punched with a greens aerator. Virtually every layer of thatch, and topdressed sand can be seen years-down into the plug.

Anyhow - after rambling on - about your question, if no roots get in the way, that golf hole cup cutter can take a sample clear up to the wood handle.

You cut a plug, pull it out, and extract it with a handle or foot pedal. Then insert it in the hole and keep going, plug after plug until the wood handle hits the ground. Never seen it done yet, but that might be a cool way to see soil horizons of soil layers down to like 30"

Basically, you could do to soil with it, what an increment borer does to a tree. Smaller core samples can be taken, but I really liked the big plugs on the country clubs for looking at the layers.

Within a root zone, the tool is going to get stopped by roots fairly soon. It can neatly cut through 1/2" roots if its sharpened before-hand. Especially if its the scalloped edge version, or had V notches ground into it and then re-sharpened.

The company that carries them is LESCO - website easy to find. That tool is about $120

On greens, they yank the cup with a cup puller, then insert the cup into the new hole and set it with a cup setter that depresses it to an exact depth - I think 1" or 1.25" deep. too deep and the hole can compress from golfing, too shallow and the golf ball will ride the cup rim and come back out.

If you have time to kill, and want to read about the ordeal of setting-up for daily play, I have a small schpeel here...

MD Vaden Schpeel about setting pins / tees for golf daily play

Its actually amusing how complex it really is to set the course for hitting a ball into 18 holes.

 

[sean_freeman]

What we've actually done here in townsville for a number of large trees in our care is decompact using air knife and compressor, then sheet mulched over the entire area...the composted wood chips then get into the decompaction holes and the root plate gets the carbon hit (after time as you say)
Of course these were trees with no turf over the root plate, in a construction site actually.

But I would agree using either a pick or an air knife then putting very well composted ship into the holes would be a positive approach..albeit slow...since vertical mulching itself is a mind numbingly slow process

.

Clearly getting into a relationship with the client to the point where they begin to see the same values in the trees as we do is the key...although there will always still be situations where big mulch beds will not be easy to get accepted...large estates with manicured lawns, and even some parks have been very resistant to that change despite numerous non tree advantages to decreased turf areas...cost$$$

It always is a slow process lucky the trees will wait for us to catch up eh?

 

[mrtree]

I think you are wrong about 10 years Guy, in soils that do have earthworms they will move organic matter immediately. In highly compacted urban soils devoid of bio activity the benefits of mulch will likely be seen within a year. I find you do not need to get the mulch to the roots as tree roots will rapidly move up to invade the soil/mulch interface. As bio acticity increases the changes in soil strucutre over a growing season or two are amazing. One test is to watch how quick the incorporation of organic matter is (and correspondingly how quick you need to replace the mulch).

 

[guymayor]

[ QUOTE ]
It can neatly cut through 1/2" roots if its sharpened before-hand. That tool is about $120

[/ QUOTE ]2 reasons I will not be buying one anytime soon. A picture of the probe in use is on page 13 in the attachment. Cheaper, easier to go down a foot, and far less invasive, yet shows the same layers, which i agree are very informative.

 

[skew]

I feel like turf is getting a bad rap here. Yes it can be very bad if it is crawling up the trunk but that said- rapid change on old trees can be traumatic be it introducing products or ripping up turf.
When I bought my place(incredibly scenic skew gardens) the gound was hard packed dirt and rocks. I decided to lay sod-Kentucky Bluegrass- and now 6 years later you can't turn over a shovel without half a dozen worms.
And now a word to the mysterious mrtree: Allyology is the study of all things therefore making you an Allyologist- someone who claims to know something about every thing. I have a problem with this idea of every arborist needs to be everything to everybody. Not that I don't try to educate myself whenever possible regarding the care and maintainence of trees. That said I am a tree climber. The bulk of my business revolves around pruning and taking down trees. If I can help someone to make a decision regarding this than all the better. I think mrtree should tone down his all knowing attitude toward others and for gosh sakes man reveal yourself- If your credentials are what they are purported to be I will bow down in contrition- if not then

 

[mdvaden]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
It can neatly cut through 1/2" roots if its sharpened before-hand. That tool is about $120

[/ QUOTE ]2 reasons I will not be buying one anytime soon. A picture of the probe in use is on page 13 in the attachment. Cheaper, easier to go down a foot, and far less invasive, yet shows the same layers, which i agree are very informative.

[/ QUOTE ]

Actually, I think I'd like to have both types: the golf cup cutter, and the soil probe.

Very often, the wider golf cup cutter wouldn't work anyway - just too big.

But I do a lot of special aeration / drainage in turf situations where all I need to do is cut cores through the compacted soil in low areas, where routing drain lines is not needed, or is very impractical.

Often, this is in the vicinity of trees, and helps them to, by enabling water to pass downward, instead of accumulating.

Granted, that's not a soil sampling, although I do see a sample of the soil.

I've used a probe like the one you showed at country clubs and university campus landscape work.

Sometimes I get more excited about adding tools like that, than I do about a new Husky 395XP

 

[speelyei]

mrtree is my favorite poster. seriously.

 

[speelyei]

"I am a certified arborist with a Bachelor's degree in Sociology and Philosophy."

would I get banned for being antagonistic if I used this quote as my signature? Just curious...

 

[Mangoes]

I know why climbing 'stuff' gets more attention it just occured to me........the market is not yet evolved towards the wholistic consideration of trees that MrTree promotes. I promote this understanding and aspire to learn all that I can about tree dynamics, soil food web and such. The epiphany is this........climbing pays the bills. The market does not yet value the deeper understanding and is therefore unwilling to pay.

I hope and believe that it will, with the soft spoken encouragement of the world's astute arborists.

 

[Tree_Frog]

[ QUOTE ]
I know why climbing 'stuff' gets more attention it just occured to me........the market is not yet evolved towards the wholistic consideration of trees that MrTree promotes. I promote this understanding and aspire to learn all that I can about tree dynamics, soil food web and such. The epiphany is this........climbing pays the bills. The market does not yet value the deeper understanding and is therefore unwilling to pay.

I hope and believe that it will, with the soft spoken encouragement of the world's astute arborists.

[/ QUOTE ]

Good comment Mangoes. The hard part is to find the market that will allow you to express this knowledge. It is out there but seems to make up a small percentage. This is the quest for the Holy Grail of Arboriculture.

 

[guymayor]

[ QUOTE ]
The market does not yet value the deeper understanding and is therefore unwilling to pay.

I hope and believe that it will, with the soft spoken encouragement of the world's astute arborists.

[/ QUOTE ]soft spoken, sure, but sometimes we gotta pump up da volume!

And actually, some markets have developed enough to keep consultants busy.

It ain't easy but it is possible.