Brand/company Q's...Is Notch owned by Sherrill? What brands are worth/not-worth buying from?

I could write a lot here but they present the portawrap as a Notch piece of equipment and it seems that's a Buckingham creation, they're also putting Notch on the Safebloc now (mine's just got the sherrill logo but newer ones are now "Notch") It's the charade of positing Notch as a producer, alongside DMM/petzl/ISC, when in fact "Notch" doesn't have a facility or make products it's a badge that Sherrill puts on an array of products they've sourced.

Why does this matter? Look at the rigging line they offer, Kraken - I'm in that market right now, I look at their 5/8" line and my first thought is "Wow, 18k on 5/8, that's right up there with Polydyne and Atlas, yet it's cheaper than either- I should get this rope!" That'd be the right way to think about it IF I had faith in Notch as an entity, like I do Yale....would you put your faith in Kraken actually being as-strong, yet cheaper, than Yale's/Sterling's offerings (and WAY better than Samson/Tflbr's), I can't imagine you would yet there it is on their page, if I take their word then they just out-did Samson and Yale, I have an impossible time buying that notion :/

In your personal opinion, can you think of honest/valid reasons to re-label products from myriad companies under 1 label, then list those products alongside other (legitimate) companies as-if Notch were its own entity? Or a valid/honest reason for having two 'store-fronts' (sherrill + treehouse)? Isn't that analogous to me setting up 2 usernames on this forum and posting from both w/o acknowledging it's 1 person controlling 2 accounts? It's obvious why it's deceptive in that context, I don't know why a pass should be given when it's being done in a commercial venture (and, in commercial ventures, it's always a more appealing offense because it can be made profitable and people always act on their incentives, Notch's - and Weaver's, for that matter - incentives are abundantly clear IE profits > advancing the industry)
You seem confused on how branding works. First, Buckingham did not invent the portawrap. In fact, Buckingham often does what you seem to hate about notch- someone goes to them with an idea, and they help make it happen with their resources. Branding is part of business. Until this year, Sherrill’s dynasorb was Yale’s Polydyne. Now Samson makes the new version. The kraken line, as well as Notch’s other lines, are made by Atlantic Braids. Why are they cheaper? Send Sherrill or treestuff an email and ask. Wouldn’t it be cool to get more understanding on how it all works?

Remember that there are people behind these brands and companies, people who are a lot more like you than you may wish to believe. It’s easy to paint big, venomous teeth on a company, but try doing that to the people that represent that company, that actually have moral compass and human decency, that want what you want- to offer value in exchange for value to care for self and loved ones. Go to Pittsburg in two weeks and make a point to get to know the people behind the brands you question.
 
To clarify, I wasn’t the one who replied with the block story. However, I’ve witnessed good blocks that have been going strong for 8 years. The block vs ring discussion has one major flaw- the “vs”. If you believe rings are the best thing ever, fine. Enjoy your work, be profitable, and keep learning.

Challenging others to defend the value of blocks is worthless, unless you are hoping to find efficiencies to add to your systems that you may have missed. So far your tone has not given anyone here the idea that you want to learn. Way more statements than questions, and most questions seem to be more challenges than inquisitions.
Again my apologies, tone is difficult to convey online, my responses to the 'block has more longevity' were the same I'd have given if someone said something equally nonsensical to me ("the block sings lullabies at nighttime"), maybe he or someone else will make a case for how a moving-parts block could outlast a stationary ring but I don't think that'll happen.

I want to add that I have a 4" pulley I do use, it's got its place it's just not routine rigging. You mention you found aerial friction to be a disadvantage at times--- is it safe for me to presume that none of these times were straightforward rigging? Pulleys are near-zero friction, rings are some friction, Safebloc/etc is even more friction, I expect to see the Safebloc become more popular (I hope!) but for routine rigging, 95-outta-100 gigs, I imagine you do want some little bit of friction instead of friction-free, no? If there's an advantage to friction-free when doing standard dismantlings I would be eager to hear it, maybe it would have me wanting a heavier duty block!! I'm just genuinely unable to come up with a 'devil's advocate' case for using a pulley when you're controlling downward-loads, obviously lifting/mech advantage/hauling wants friction-free but I'm literally unable to come up with any possible reason for desiring friction-free instead of a lil-friction from rings, would truly appreciate to hear some instances where, if you had all the slings in the world, you'd choose one with a block in context of controlling earth-bound timber (not being facetious(sp?) am really curious, I'm fine admitting I could be missing something huge, I've been researching them very heavily and keep hitting the same conclusion of "blocks are going to go away if/when people are fully aware of rings' capabilities/properties")
 
You seem confused on how branding works. First, Buckingham did not invent the portawrap. In fact, Buckingham often does what you seem to hate about notch- someone goes to them with an idea, and they help make it happen with their resources. Branding is part of business. Until this year, Sherrill’s dynasorb was Yale’s Polydyne. Now Samson makes the new version. The kraken line, as well as Notch’s other lines, are made by Atlantic Braids. Why are they cheaper? Send Sherrill or treestuff an email and ask. Wouldn’t it be cool to get more understanding on how it all works?

Remember that there are people behind these brands and companies, people who are a lot more like you than you may wish to believe. It’s easy to paint big, venomous teeth on a company, but try doing that to the people that represent that company, that actually have moral compass and human decency, that want what you want- to offer value in exchange for value to care for self and loved ones. Go to Pittsburg in two weeks and make a point to get to know the people behind the brands you question.

The point of this thread was to try and get a handle on these brands, am sorry that I'm being annoying/upsetting but appreciate replies like ^ that because just in there I learned a few new 'collaborations' which lets me be a more informed customer.

To the point on people behind the operations, right is right and wrong is wrong, IMO using 2 usernames on a forum is deceptive as-is having 2 retail-fronts (sherrill+treehouse) for the same warehouse of goods. You're right, it is easy because it's that simple- is there, or is there not, deceptive practices? With Sherrill I find it hard to see how you could answer "no" to that.... I get what you mean about the people behind it, in fact in replying to posts here I've repeatedly wondered just how I would fare in such a situation- would I want to keep innovation going (like XAS seemed all-about in '14), or would I want to stifle others to help keep an edge on my own sales (like Weaver/knee ascenders), obviously I don't know what I'd do til I was in that situation BUT I know what is right and what is wrong, and if I did decide I'd stifle innovation if that innovation was taking a penny from me, I'd still know it was wrong while doing it. Doesn't make it OK and doesn't mean I should support sherrill simply because they, like most of us (myself included), act on incentives and tend towards greed.
 
The problem is you paradigm of “standard rigging” scenarios. I’ve used 4-5 rigging styles in one tree. Standard is whatever fits the situation best.

Are you familiar with double-block rigging, or DBR? What about span rigging? You don’t want aerial friction for those, with the occasional exception of using a ring as the load connector in DBR. That’s touchy due to bend radius, however, and adds a lot of heat to the system.
 
I think there's a better way to approach this, w/ far less negativity: What brand(s) do you favor above all others, and why?
(that's to anyone reading!)

I just want my meager pittance $$ spent on equipment to go towards the entities/people who are the most committed towards pushing things forward. When a company is placing profit over advancement it's not even just an ethics thing it brings in safety concerns, I've already read a couple instances here of recalls not being issued immediately upon life-support gear being known-defective, am surprised a company could even recover/continue existence after something like that (if someone died & sued they'd be shut down but even w/o incident I would've thought there'd be consumer-protection laws, IE if you knew a life-critical safety flaw was on the market and you didn't follow-up in the appropriate manner you shouldn't have the right to continue selling life-critical gear. IMO.)
 
Cool pivot. Personally, I think Yale is bomber. I also like sterling for their htp and atlas. Some have issue with sterling, but having met and chatted with the president, I think the complaints are unfounded. My biggest gripe is that their double braid climb lines are subpar to Yale and teufelberger (my opinion).

Hardware- love ART, Rock Exotica, and DMM.

Rigging- my bag is a hodgepodge of brands and types, Yale Polydyne for my main line, though.
 
The problem is you paradigm of “standard rigging” scenarios. I’ve used 4-5 rigging styles in one tree. Standard is whatever fits the situation best.

Are you familiar with double-block rigging, or DBR? What about span rigging? You don’t want aerial friction for those, with the occasional exception of using a ring as the load connector in DBR. That’s touchy due to bend radius, however, and adds a lot of heat to the system.
Do you happen to have any url's that you think would be useful for more advanced understanding of rigging? Am going through rr668 for a 2nd time, it's the only thorough piece I've found :/


Re DBR- that's mech-advantage though, so not the "regular-type rigging" I was mentioning but it's a fair counterpoint! I'm familiar with the concept but have never used it, however I'm failing to see the issues the way you are:
- bend-radius: if using double-beast-ring slings, you've got 3.5" bend, that's about as good as any pulley gives,
- heat: this really confuses me because from all the test-videos Dave put out it was clear that these rings handle insane friction w/o heating up much at all, so if you were using the appropriate rings the heat-dissipation shouldn't be an issue at all (have you actually tried them and found them to heat? If so I'd really love to hear specifics IE how big a load it was, how high it was, and what rings were used!)

So far as I'm looking at it, DBR would be better with friction- the point is to control a heavy load's downward descent, and friction does just that....the biggest problem I'm seeing with replacing the 2 blocks with 4 beast-rings is that the bull line itself could fail due to the short lengths between the friction-devices!

Am now eager-as-hell to try this out myself, it seems the use-case for this is when you want to drop something heavier than you+your groundie could've otherwise done with regular/standard rigging, however as a guy who does a lot of solo-rigging I'm seeing it as helping me the same way my Safebloc does IE I can exert more control from in-canopy, I mean if I was comfortable taking a couple natural limb-wraps up in the canopy to control a 150lbs piece I'm cutting, I should instead rig that 150lbs piece in a DBR setup (hell if the line was strong enough I could use the Safebloc as the fixed anchor and a ringed-sling as the log's sling!), damn now I wish I had the ability to haul-off the lumber as I want to charge out back right now to my test-tree and mess with this (funny that this will likely be one-of the most useful things I'll obtain from this thread, and I don't mean the thread's bad there's a TON of useful stuff here I just mean I think I can make so much use of this solo-rigging that it could prove invaluable to me :D Thanks!!

e in the system between friction-points"

Would love to hear anything you can tell me about your use of this tech, am now thinking I should experiment with it with the rings although NOT for the reasons that people seem to use this for (snubbing larger loads with a groundie), I'm thinking of it as akin to the Safebloc in that it'd let me solo-rig with more control by using the rings, clearly I'd have to be super conservative and not over-stress my line between the rings but expect this technique could be just as useful as the Bloc to a solo-rigger, will be trying this soon for sure I already know what I'm going to do it on lol I've got a mostly-dismantled Oak I practice stuff on and have been taking its last sections for the past couple months, think I'm going to try this method the next time I go up there!! (is there any reason I couldn't use dbr, well dRINGr, in the context of a controlled-speedline? My practice tree is above some of my garden-specimen so can't straight-drop from there but really want to test light-load dbr as a solo-rigger tech!
 
Cool pivot. Personally, I think Yale is bomber. I also like sterling for their htp and atlas. Some have issue with sterling, but having met and chatted with the president, I think the complaints are unfounded. My biggest gripe is that their double braid climb lines are subpar to Yale and teufelberger (my opinion).

Hardware- love ART, Rock Exotica, and DMM.

Rigging- my bag is a hodgepodge of brands and types, Yale Polydyne for my main line, though.
WOW I am so glad you posted this, I am literally trying to decide between 5/8" Atlas or Polydyne right now!! Would *love* to hear any&everything you care to share on your experiences with them!!

Actually my research on this decision/choice has left me with more Q's than answers, it was very confusing to learn that bull-lines are, on-average, more static than our climb lines!!! Considering the primary-usage is to control heavy limbs on their way to the ground, I'd have thought that elasticity of bull-lines would be an incredibly "prime" attribute, yet these ropes have been made&used for ages and it seems like just now the manufacturers are making them stretchier (and, therefore, better shock-absorbers) Just blows my mind, I mean I've seen promotional stuff for bull lines that brag about how static they are as-if that's a good thing---is it ever a good thing for rigging if there's even a chance of dynamic-loading? Can understand wanting a static winch line, even a static line you use for lifting branches or something, but for regular 'ole snubbing / blocking it would seem ellasticity is an incredibly important attribute yet I'm seeing Yale just upgraded the elasticity from d.elasteron to polydyne, samson increased it with dynasorb, and then there's the outlier at 4.5%, Atlas, that seems to have as many lovers in the rigging area as Blue Moon does in climbing.....what am I missing? It looks like the established brands are just finally now getting into the idea of making a load-catching line have better shock-absorption via elasticity, I mean Yale's upgrade from d.elasteron to polydyne is something I guess I would've thought would've happened 10 or 20yrs ago, not just recently! Also confused why d.elasteron is still on the market, like why on earth would someone buy that when polydyne is available? Nevermind that d.elasteron, not only with less elasticity but over 10% lower MBS, is somehow still $10 more for a hank of 5/8" than polydyne! So confusing!!

Sorry for length but it just boggles my mind, feel like Polydyne, maybe Atlas, should be the rope-of-choice for like 99% of arboriculture-rigging operations yet one of the most popular is the super-static 'stable braid' (heck, people seem to know you don't use amsteel in your rigging system because it's like 0.5% stretch, can't believe the market for these bull-lines is still "in an upward swing" trying to optimize elasticity, it's not like it's new fibers/tech I mean the d.elasteron-->polydyne difference is simply using a nylon core instead of poly, correct me if I'm wrong but I've read and re-read all Yale's stuff and seems polydyne = d.elasteron only with nylon core, but if that's the case my only Q is- why did it take so long, why wouldn't they have used nylon core in the 1st place? Seems an obvious blend for bull lines, poly outsides for wear and nylon interiors for absorption...
 
As for vertical speed line, steel biners for me. Easy on and off. In dbr, the reason I don’t always like the ring in play is just how much friction is added. The MA boosts the effect of any friction in the system, and I often find it too much. There are exceptions, but generally I prefer the blocks. There’s a smoothness that’s difficult to quantify. The biggest exception is when there’s risk of smacking the trunk with a 1k lb piece with a block in play. Rings are great there. Though, I did smash an aluminum block against a protruding nub with a 1k piece in dbr, with no sign of damage, so there’s that. Truly, we all have a preferred approach to our work, and momentum in method should not be overlooked. I may use a seemingly slower method, but I have years of experience in applying that method well, I may be faster than someone less-versed in a newer, more efficient method. Now, the long game should be considered as well. Though I may be fast in my approach, could sacrificing momentum to learn a new approach lead to better efficiency, ergonomics, safety, which are all key to the long game?

All that to say- of rings are your jam, use them in every way you can. If you ever see a need for something else, be willing to pivot. A mentor of mine would commit to a new technique/tool/whatever for three months to determine its place, or to see if he could say with finality he hated it. He discovered new favorites in things he thought he would never like.
 
WOW I am so glad you posted this, I am literally trying to decide between 5/8" Atlas or Polydyne right now!! Would *love* to hear any&everything you care to share on your experiences with them!!

Actually my research on this decision/choice has left me with more Q's than answers, it was very confusing to learn that bull-lines are, on-average, more static than our climb lines!!! Considering the primary-usage is to control heavy limbs on their way to the ground, I'd have thought that elasticity of bull-lines would be an incredibly "prime" attribute, yet these ropes have been made&used for ages and it seems like just now the manufacturers are making them stretchier (and, therefore, better shock-absorbers) Just blows my mind, I mean I've seen promotional stuff for bull lines that brag about how static they are as-if that's a good thing---is it ever a good thing for rigging if there's even a chance of dynamic-loading? Can understand wanting a static winch line, even a static line you use for lifting branches or something, but for regular 'ole snubbing / blocking it would seem ellasticity is an incredibly important attribute yet I'm seeing Yale just upgraded the elasticity from d.elasteron to polydyne, samson increased it with dynasorb, and then there's the outlier at 4.5%, Atlas, that seems to have as many lovers in the rigging area as Blue Moon does in climbing.....what am I missing? It looks like the established brands are just finally now getting into the idea of making a load-catching line have better shock-absorption via elasticity, I mean Yale's upgrade from d.elasteron to polydyne is something I guess I would've thought would've happened 10 or 20yrs ago, not just recently! Also confused why d.elasteron is still on the market, like why on earth would someone buy that when polydyne is available? Nevermind that d.elasteron, not only with less elasticity but over 10% lower MBS, is somehow still $10 more for a hank of 5/8" than polydyne! So confusing!!

Sorry for length but it just boggles my mind, feel like Polydyne, maybe Atlas, should be the rope-of-choice for like 99% of arboriculture-rigging operations yet one of the most popular is the super-static 'stable braid' (heck, people seem to know you don't use amsteel in your rigging system because it's like 0.5% stretch, can't believe the market for these bull-lines is still "in an upward swing" trying to optimize elasticity, it's not like it's new fibers/tech I mean the d.elasteron-->polydyne difference is simply using a nylon core instead of poly, correct me if I'm wrong but I've read and re-read all Yale's stuff and seems polydyne = d.elasteron only with nylon core, but if that's the case my only Q is- why did it take so long, why wouldn't they have used nylon core in the 1st place? Seems an obvious blend for bull lines, poly outsides for wear and nylon interiors for absorption...
The only difference between them in my experience is atlas’ jacket seems tougher. You can’t go wrong with either. I’d throw a dart or decide by price.
 
Notch is supported by the largest effort to develop tree care specific products in the world. Our line is the broadest and best value around and backed by a lifetime warranty. I work personally on the design and production of every item.
Wait----I thought Notch was rebranding others items, but your line "I work personally on the design and production of every item" gives the exact-opposite impression (not even impression, your statement there means you personally worked on the design & production of the Notch portawrap, the Notch Safebloc, the Notch Kraken rope...what am I missing?)

Regardless of some specific items ^ listed, your post is saying Notch "develops", you work on the "production", yet everything seems to squarely point to Notch being a brand/stamp, NOT a producer....apologies if tone seems wrong I just want to understand, hell I was aiming to support Treestuff because I liked your posts on masterblaster and it looked like you were running a lil e-store, but the way you speak here has me thinking you actually have ownership (or operational, at minimum) interests in how Sherrill/Notch are run.....if that's the case, can I ask why there's two retail-outlets (ie Sherrill and Treestuff), maybe there's a rationale that makes sense? Or is it a single operation with 2 public-faces?
 
The comments that anyone 'stole' this idea or that are ridiculous. We live not only in a country with intellectual property laws, but a global economy with them.
Oh c'mon are you making a BLANKET statement that no ideas are being stolen? That is pretty explicitly what your 1st sentence here says.... You speak of IP-law as being some easily-accessible area and are basically implying it's self-evident that, if IP is violated, it's fairly handled:

We live not only in a country with intellectual property laws, but a global economy with them. If anyones ideas had been stolen, the courts would decide that.
What are your thoughts on the Weaver/Mumford drama?

Surely you can at least acknowledge that the average tree-worker who comes up with an innovation, whether it's Dave's Safebloc or Kevin's Wrench, is in a HORRIBLE position to defend themselves when it comes to an established, wealthy corporation trying to fight them. Am eager to hear whether you think this system is working appropriately in the Weaver/Mumford case....Would also love to hear a candid answer from guys like Bingham, Reg Coates, Dave Driver etc about whether they feel they were "fully in control of their IP" when trying to bring it to market, I wonder whether they felt that they got a fair-shake when passing-over their IP, or if they felt it was "better than nothing" and the best option of shitty-options....sadly I doubt any of them would openly say "yeah I feel I got shafted, but what could I do?" because they wouldn't want to jeopardize social capital :/

Honestly since I've got your ear the thing I'd be most-interested in hearing is "Why position Notch as-if it were a producer?" when it is not (unless Notch does have a production facility, though so far as I can glean Notch is only a re-branding campaign, Ex ANTAL innovates a great product, Dave stamps them with X-Rigging and gets them a lot of publicity (props for that Dave!), then Sherrill retails them to the world- this is great, up until the point that the desire to erase x-rigging, and add 'notch', comes up. Every last item 'Notch' could just be referenced by the actual originators, yet it's not.....there's only *1* reason I can fathom for this, and it's not a pro-consumer reason :/
 
The only difference between them in my experience is atlas’ jacket seems tougher. You can’t go wrong with either. I’d throw a dart or decide by price.
Wowzers, was expecting polydyne to have a tight jacket like Blue Moon (which is insanely tough, couldn't cut it with a utility knife when splicing or rather trying-to-splice!)

Thanks a ton, very reassuring to know this I think I'll leave it to price then (or just stick with Yale, love Yale!!) Did you ever try splicing both of them? If so I'd love hearing if one was markedly easier to splice than the other!
 
Notch/treestuff/sherrill don't give a shit about the health and well being of arbclimbers and the environment. :rolleyes:
We can discuss this again? Tom, Jeff and Mark know where this can go. Many members also know and hate to hear it again.
Do we continue ?
I am here to say think twice about giving your money to Sherrill

Would LOVE a keyword if you don't have any url's off-hand, am totally unsure what you're referencing and would very much like to know!!
 
Oh, give me a break... the analogy was fine. It referred to your insistence that blocks were overpriced junk made from a few dollars worth of aluminum. Context, my friend. They're labor intensive items with a demand for absolute reliability, and the markup reflects that. It isn't any higher than any other similar manufactured device. The markup on the rings isn't exactly low, for an item that can be mass produced from a billet of aluminum in a single operation.



A block doesn't have a habit of falling out of the sling when hit with an impact load. Friction at the TIP comes at a price... it's the first thing to feel an impact load and wear on both the rope and device is high. You'll replace rings much sooner than blocks. Since they're still used with a friction brake, the entire rope gets heated up with not as much chance to cool down. If the redirects are also rings, this is compounded. Over time, that will likely result in shorter rope life. Not a big deal for some people, but a consideration for others.



Perhaps you should review your own posts before giving me a bad rating for negativity.



You spend energy defending against people making assumptions about what you mean, then say things like this? I use both aerial friction devices and blocks. I have an AFB, more than one Rig 'N Wrench setup, rings from four different OEMs, and a multitude of blocks from several OEMs. I have never once found any of them to be terribly overpriced, just expensive. I have dealt with many OEMs concerning their products, and haven't experienced any of the Evil Empire stuff you're going on about.
Wait,?! I can rate your posts? Tell me how please.
 
Cool pivot. Personally, I think Yale is bomber. I also like sterling for their htp and atlas. Some have issue with sterling, but having met and chatted with the president, I think the complaints are unfounded. My biggest gripe is that their double braid climb lines are subpar to Yale and teufelberger (my opinion).

Hardware- love ART, Rock Exotica, and DMM.

Rigging- my bag is a hodgepodge of brands and types, Yale Polydyne for my main line, though.
Sterling is now sherrellll
 
Back to the subject of the post, Notch is particularly interesting to me. It's a house brand, but not. And in an industry which many of the products are life support, they have many of their products made by other industry leaders and not just anyone. Which leads me back to another point about Chinese brands...
THIS is a great way of phrasing my concerns over Sherrill/Treehouse calling out-of-house produced goods "Notch". We ALL, if we care at least, give a damn about the integrity of the company that is making (not re-selling) the gear we use. I've ZERO issue with Sherrill sourcing things from all over, in fact I LIKE that. It's when they obscure the manufacturer and instead stamp Notch on it that bothers me, as this is clearly a move that makes the average-reader of adverts think that Notch is its own company, when it is not. It leads one to think they can expect a consistent degree of integrity, since they expect Notch is a consistent entity, when in fact it's stamping-brands not producing.

You say "in an industry which many of the products are life-support, they have many of their products made by other industry leaders and not just anyone".....1st, 'most-of'? That, in a sentence with life-support, is a major issue (though I'll grant that you probably just didn't want to use the absolute 'all' w/o being positive so will ignore that one) But, if the products are being made by "industry leaders" then why not just list it those companies? Surely everyone sees the conflict-of-interest when Sherrill puts out a magazine and places Notch as company alongside others w/o any indication that Notch doesn't have its own facilities.....do Notch products get promoted in a way that's deceptive or do we assume that, sure, they're obfuscating product-origins, but when it comes to promotion they are being 100.0% honest? Nick seems like a great guy, but almost-everyone (and I'm not excluding myself here) is prone to selfishly going after their own incentives, and in a context like this it is VERY easy to imagine how profits could become more important than innovation or even safety- hell just consider the example of Weaver trying to stifle Mumford's innovations so they can have a slightly better edge on their knee-ascenders, it's not surprising/confusing why they'd do it, but they do it all the same- with Sherrill/Treehouse/Notch there are all the hallmarks of aggressive sales (from Notch being presented as its own entity to having 2 store-fronts for the same enterprise), the only uncertain thing is whether the quality is there which is usually assessed by trust in a brand, with Notch it's trust in...Nick Bonner and nameless people at Sherrill, so far as I can tell. Nick seems a good guy but that doesn't change the fact that products that are supposedly from "industry leaders" are being promoted as-if they were coming from an entity called Notch when it's really just a sub-set of brands in the Sherrill inventory that they're able to stamp Notch on. I know Nick is claiming to be all-over the design of everything, maybe he was for the Portawrap and the Safebloc but it's hard to think that's the case considering the age of the portawrap, and the well documented usage of the THT/Safebloc by Dave before it became a Notch product. Even if I ignored those, and even if I found Nick to be the most-reputable guy ever, I could never buy life-support gear based on 1 guy's promise that he's involved in every part of it, and short of him the entire operation just reeks of for-profit regardless of what's best for the industry.

This was always an interesting economic paradigm to me, in BMX we were all very very big on only supporting rider-owned brands but in reality it was "rider-owned brands that are doing what they do to advance things, and profit from doing so", because at one point pretty much all BMX brands were started by a biker, but - just like here in arborism and in most niches - some companies get big, the owners get rich and begin to care more about their company than the industry served, these are avoided like the plague by serious bmx'ers and for good reason (may sound silly to you guys but we did things where bad hardware could most-certainly cause massive injury even fatalities, not to the degree of arbor stuff but you are still in the position of trusting your body/your safety to a product, ergo knowing that the producers are for the industry first and profits second is incredibly important) With Notch eager to put their stamp on all these products, with them positioning Notch among other brands (instead of "Notch lineup by Sherrill", I mean I couldn't imagine setting that up w/o acknowledging it and not feel like I was a liar..), it leaves Nick's assurances as the sole thing that'd make me think Sherrill/Notch/Treehouse(are there more?) is more concerned with the industry than with profit. Profit motive is fine, it's understandable, but it's equally understandable that the users would want to buy from people whose sole concern is the product not their company or profits. It's almost funny in a way because it seems that in many niche industries the companies aren't "one or the other", but in fact tend to just start out "for their hobby/profession" and, once successful in their operations, shift their priorities.
 
What dumpy said. I've bought some of the nameless Chinese stuff from eBay and Ali baba. Sometimes it was ok, sometimes garbage. Notch may be made in China, but they seem to exercise a level of quality control. I haven't had any problems with my notch products, carabiners and micro pulleys.
Well put!! But.....
I'd NEVER use unknown gear on anything critical, so for instance my climb-line I'd only buy from Yale or Samson (though I've never used Samson, I do know that they have a long-term proven track-record) I would not trust a company w/o a proven track-record in this regard- how does this play-out with Notch? We basically trust a single person....not only is that 'bottleneck' of trust so small/fragile that it's almost worthless - Nick seems great but I don't pretend to be able to read a stranger from online discussions well enough to assess their character - but even if Nick is the most altruistic, industry-sponsoring guy ever (which seems the case in many regards), if Notch products are being made at factories all over the world, Nick isn't going to be there doing quality control....I don't want my climb-rope from some factory that, when Nick was there, was up to par for him only to find out that their management-shakeup was missed by Nick and quality had slipped - if Notch were its own company, you can better-manage these things (and positing all these myriad products under "Notch" gives consumers that false-impression that they're coming from the same place)

And on the "China manufacturing" note.....chinese people, like all people, make good & bad products, I'd never buy a climb-line from a company I couldn't verify the integrity of but for non-critical stuff it's a great way to avoid the price-gouging that's so rampant in this industry (surely nobody disagrees with the general level of price-gouging? Seeing that china can sell me ascenders for under $20 that work great a year later, then seeing $70 minimum for the cheapest versions in the catalogues, is pretty annoying - glad I didn't blow $200 on my ascenders lol!)
 
Sterling is now sherrellll
Thanks a TON for this!!

I'd love to hear any further info on this, my immediate thought is "If Sterling is a high-integrity rope-manufacturer, why on earth would they not want to keep their brand? Surely their long-term potential would be higher than selling-out to a company...." Further, why not just list Sterling in the Sherrill catalogue as Sterling? I would like to hear Nick's account of this (if I didn't upset him to the point of not getting any answers :/ ), I mean what if Sherrill's bank account was suddenly unlimited, would every company just get bought and called Notch? Why not? That does seem to be the way the business-model is being explained....obviously that'd make-clear that it's monopolistic behavior (inherently anti-competitive which means anti-consumer), am uncertain what Nick would say about whether or not the goal is to just get everything under Notch - if it's not the goal, then why bother re-branding stuff in the 1st place? At the end of the day I just don't get why the Safebloc and Rigging Rings couldn't be "XAS products, exclusively sold at Sherrill!" (or any other products they're re-labelling), I mean I 'get' one reason but it's that same ugly reason of wanting unfair advantages whether it's positioning Notch as a manufacturer or as having 2 storefronts (sherrill&treehouse) for one retailer's wares :/

In flipping pages and looking at the banners I realize this board may be owned by treehouse, would be curious if anyone could tell me the status of that (whether this board is owned and/or operated primarily by a retailer(s))
 
The Sentinel is a sweet ride. I got the chance to take one up for a day and enjoyed it. It’s light and easily adjustable. Figuring out the buckles may take a few repetitions, but they’re smooth action once you have the motions down. Let us know what you think!
'Us'? Jeeebus how many principles from notch/sherrill/rope-logic/treehouse are regular posters here? Are you guys the primary parties to the company? Would definitely have more faith if I knew that all the principals in the company were active climbers +/- actively participating in the industry beyond selling wares.....I like virtually everything about what's being done except the name-foolery (both the two-retail-outlets for one company and, far moreso, the re-stamping of other products to this Notch "company")

I'll be candid and just ask it- is the principle of putting the Notch logo on certain wares to imply that Notch is its own organization? It is very hard to see it any other way... If so, what is the justification for that? Why not just call the Safebloc "XAS Safebloc", why call someone else's rope "Kraken"? Doesn't that leave more power in the consumer's hands, so they can choose? Obviously you're not going to assert that all these myriad products Notch sells, that are coming from all over, somehow have a consistent level of quality in the manner that a single manufacturer would - so why obfuscate the origin of products? Sherrill already seemed a major retailer, doing well listing other brands, which is why I'm finding it so hard to find a good-faith explanation for calling products Notch and positioning them as-if Notch was just another brand featured in the Sherrill catalog...
 

New threads New posts

Back
Top Bottom