Crimsonking
Been here a while
The focus of that portion of the conversation was on the branding of portawraps. And you might be surprised how many manufacturers outsource production.
Brand/company Q's...Is Notch owned by Sherrill? What brands are worth/not-worth buying from?
- Thread starter eyehearttrees
- Start date
Joeybagodonuts
Participating member
- Location
- Boondocks
Here we go again..
Why do people keep trying to argue this..?
Just to argue?
Some armchair hero mentality?
Have they ever opened a Buckingham catalog? Aside from Spurs & some of their saddles, the majority of the actual useful gear & tools i see for our trade, are rebranded, piggybacked off of, or rely on another companies successful design... Yet it's all marketed as if its only available from Buck.
So what's the argument? Who is the one who is actually "confused"? The person who recognizes Buck has the ability to manufacture goods, but doesn't recognize the all the other products they rebrand & just sees them as Buckingham cuz they say Buckingham?
Or the one who realizes both sides of that equation.. which I'm pretty sure Crimson knows.
SomethingWitty
Arkansawyer
- Location
- LR
It was a conspiracy by dentists. Biting a piece of lead shot isn't fun, but steel shot breaks teeth.
climbstihl
Branched out member
- Location
- Germany
I know throwbags end up in weird spots sometimes, but how do you start chewing on one? And if you just smack yourself in the teeth, it doesn't matter if it's lead or steel.
SomethingWitty
Arkansawyer
- Location
- LR
I know a couple of hardcore duck hunters who have cracked teeth on steel shot in a duck breast.
Waterfowl are a big deal around here.
LMAO you are seriously misinformed my friend. Elaborate on what successful product design Buckingham re-branded? Like seriously i truly dont think you know what your talking about. Also the argument is you guys are trying to compare apples and oranges. A Manufacturer vs a Brand. Notch is a Brand, Buckingham is a Manufacturer. Buckingham Manufactures products for Brands like Notch, every product Notch sells aside from maybe some of their splicing is manufactured and re-branded from another manufacturer. I have been around this industry for far to long to not be able to see "Both sides" and it is laughable you think a company like Buckingham relies on other companies for products. Go climb a tree or something and stop misinforming people on what you think you know.
Joeybagodonuts
Participating member
- Location
- Boondocks
Lol sure thing bud..
I have no clue..
I have no clue..
Crimsonking
Been here a while
Did you read my post that you quoted? I believe you missed the point. Now you’re ridiculing and attacking other members with an argument that isn’t even on topic. I for one am interested in your qualifications for such a stance.
Joeybagodonuts
Participating member
- Location
- Boondocks
Or accurate for that matter..
Meanwhile telling someone how misinformed they are..
DumpyMcDoodleface
New member
- Location
- My house
Buck Multi-Purpose-Lanyard - 7C08DQ1-16/9C08DQ1-16
The Buck M.P.L is a multipurpose lanyard; like the BuckUp lanyard, this is one of the most versatile lanyards available on the market.
buckinghammfg.com
Just saying, they don't really make any of this.
The company I work for is a manufacturing company, and we have products in our lineup made for us by other companies - it's a way to leverage The other company's strength and expand our lineup... Painted our color with our logos on it.
Ford and Mazda had a long time business partnership, and I think it's Toyota or Mazda that has one of it's smaller cars straight up made in the other company's factory. This kind of thing happens all the time across all industries.
Sherrill has reached the point where they could either grow by opening more brick and mortar stores, but being in an industry long supported by mail order (now internet) has chosen to grow other ways.
Why buy tree stuff and keep them and not just make them a warehouse or additional brick and mortar? Different markets! Tree stuff is a different "brand", with different strategies, and different tactics. And of course we can say, no! It's the same market! But think of it more like the slew of GM brands. It's all the auto market, but GMC traditionally targeted the work market and chevy the consumer market.
Sherrill continues to be a traditional mail order style company, while I think tree stuff appeals to the more tech-savvy social media online types. Bonner benefits because he has the backing of Sherrill's buying power and gets to be a big part of all the new Notch stuff, and Sherrill benefits because they get a cut.
As for notch... Yes they are a brand, not a manufacturer. But it doesn't mean they have any less influence on the products they brand... Even companies which manufacture products in the US use parts made for them by other companies. Is a Bobcat less of a quality product because Kubota or Doosan makes their engines? Or some plastics manufacturer makes cab components for them?
Added later: my group needs fuel tanks for our products. We don't design fuel tanks. We design the shape and a company that specializes in fuel tanks makes the tanks. We use their design expertise to make sure the tanks so what they need to and work closely with them to make sure they work for our products. Are we any less designers because we use them?
How much of a Stihl saw is actually made by Stihl? How much of it can be made by other companies before they become just a brand? I'll bet they buy their pull cord from a cordage manufacturer. Does that mean when I buy Stihl brand replacement pull cord they become just another rebranding bunch of con-artists?
How about store brands? Most store brands are trying to make a discount alternative to the name brand. Sherrill had Sherrill branded stuff too, but now they are banding under the notch brand which has products which are unique to them.
Guess what else notch can do? They get to be sold in other stores and not just Sherrill umbrella stores. Bet you never see equate sold anywhere but Walmart. That's f*ing smart if you ask me.
Im sorry but all this whining about deception and all that conspiracy nonsense needs to be put to rest. Businesses exist to make money. It's not the warm fuzzy answer, but it's the truth. There is actually legal obligation to a company's shareholders. I'd argue that the best way for quality brands to do that is to make a good product that serves their industry, but it depends on the brand strategy too. The other fact is very few companies make every component that goes into their product and many companies have their products made entirely by a manufacturer who specializes in that product. Another big thing is companies strive to have a lineup or a catalog of products. If under the notch brand they want to have rope to sell, why on God's green earth would they open a rope making factory instead of buying it from a company that knows their crap? And if they just want rope that meets some specs and comes in special colors, why redesign the wheel? This isn't about deception, it's about Sherrill realizing that there's only so much they can do to grow as an online retailer and finding other avenues for growth.
Edited a few minor wording things
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DumpyMcDoodleface
New member
- Location
- My house
You realize that notch does have products designed by them, right? No they don't design rope, they spec out what they want... But they have design influence on their versions of existing products too. The checkerboard pattern on throw balls, the color coded handles on the wedges. Are either of those products industry changing products? No. Are their decisions on the features, materials, and manufacturers considered "design"? Hell yeah.
Joeybagodonuts
Participating member
- Location
- Boondocks
By saying "every Notch product is manufactured & rebranded", your trying to argue Notch doesn't design it's own products... Which is just completed garbage.. they may not manufacturer, but they do indeed have a design team that will design certain items from the ground up.
There's asolutely 0 Buckingham input on any of these products below, yet have their own Buckingham product name.. What's that called.. i forget because I'm so misinformed.. oh yeah.. Rebranding..
https://buckinghammfg.com/products/buckup-lanyard-9ccq1-16/ Sterling Ultimate Positioning lanyard with Dmm Hardware
https://buckinghammfg.com/products/single-sheave-buckrigger-5007r1/ Omni 1.5
https://buckinghammfg.com/products/double-sheave-buckrigger-5007r2/ Omni 1.5 double
https://buckinghammfg.com/products/rigging-block-5007l/ ISC 3/4 Block
https://buckinghammfg.com/products/rigging-block-5007s/ ISC 5/8 Block
https://buckinghammfg.com/products/ox-hook-slide-r-kit48/ Dmm Biner CMI Pulley
https://buckinghammfg.com/products/aluminum-triple-action-carabiner-5555s4/ DMM Ansi gate
https://buckinghammfg.com/products/replacement-rope-for-rescue-squeeze-488ar-100/ Samson Velocity
https://buckinghammfg.com/products/bucktree-alta-verde-saddle-179061/ Looks an awfully lot like the Notch Sentinel.. Yet the sentinel has been out for at least a few years.. who's designing for who here..
Like I'll say below.. this just scratches the surface of how many products are rebranded for Buck.
https://buckinghammfg.com/products/buck-auxiliary-pulley-kit-kit86/
No Rock Exotica fingerprints here at all.... no.. no... 0 reliance on other companies for products..
https://buckinghammfg.com/products/clevis-top-buck-sidel-swivel-50072b1/
Nothing to see here folks.. Move along.. No, that is not a Rock Exotica shackle swivel design up top.. get outta here, no, that's not a push button side plate.. no.. no.. Buckingham Manufactured this all by themselves in their own factory!!
https://buckinghammfg.com/products/lifeline-for-underground-rescue-39y13q1-50/ Isc Grab, 10-5 - 11.5 Yale R.i.n.g.
https://buckinghammfg.com/products/treesqueeze-7l08t18j/ Samson prusik Yale Uniline body
https://buckinghammfg.com/products/the-buck-rigidline-7808r18m6/ Yale Uniline
https://buckinghammfg.com/products/buck-multi-purpose-lanyard-7c08dq1-16/ Yale XTC spearmint
https://buckinghammfg.com/products/buckadjuster-with-super-fabric-9a4-8/ Yale XTC
https://buckinghammfg.com/products/rope-friction-saver-60/ Samson Arbormaster
https://buckinghammfg.com/products/mobile-fall-arrestor-lock-wbucksorber-2-5004l4/ Petzl
https://buckinghammfg.com/products/whoopie-sling-39078ta-6/ Samson Tenex
I could go on & on & on as these few items mearly just scratch the surface of the Arborist section alone... but no.. your right.. Buck has no reliance on any other companies to produce products, above is just imagined.
Right right..
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Buckingham is one of the go-to suppliers for linemen/ power companies and tower installation/ maintenance companies. Now this is just speculation that seems silly but the suits that approve what gear they buy probably don’t want to see rock climbing gear, even if it’s the exact same product. Slap a Buckingham logo on it though and it’s all good.
There’s rescue gear companies that do the same thing too. CMC took RE Omniblocks, put them through whatever testing to earn them NFPA certs and market them to fire rescue companies.
Nobody is getting screwed over here, Rock is still getting paid and keeping his employees busy.
Buckingham absolutely manufactures a lot of gear too. I’ve always been happy with their gear, usually very well made stuff. Just shop around a bit when getting pulleys and biners.
Joeybagodonuts
Participating member
- Location
- Boondocks
Just to be clear, by posting those links & showing the products i did, contrary to a lot of the opinions a few pages back, I'm by no means saying i disagree with rebranding or the methods Buckingham uses to create products... Now would i pay their markup on certain things, HELL NO! But its their right to charge what they want for it. Informed consumers who can actually reconize the sourcing, will usually find a way to get the same thing cheaper.
Nobody said anything about Notch not designing products they just dont manufacture them and from what i have seen get most of it manufactured overseas? and Yes of course manufactures bring in rope and other hardware to manufacture a product lol that would be dumb to manufacture that stuff them self's. Also the Notch Sentinal Saddle is a cheap overseas remake of the buckingham ergo series saddle that i have had for 8+ years "whos copying who their"?. My argument is were comparing manufactures to brands and a bunch of other non-sense. This thread is about "brands worth buying from". i am going to stick with brands and manufactures that have been around for years and have proven reliability in our industry. You can go climb in your overseas cheaply made products that i am seeing more and more of in our industry, i will stick with mine.
DumpyMcDoodleface
New member
- Location
- My house
Back to the first few threads here... Overseas does not equal cheaply made. I mean look at flagship phones, computers, etc. Again, where it's made has a lot less to do with quality then who the brand is and what their quality control/expectations is. I totally support made in the USA when I can, but let's call a spade a spade. Made in China doesn't mean cheap crap, especially when designed and supported by a reputable brand.
Joeybagodonuts
Participating member
- Location
- Boondocks
Oh right right... Your werent implying that at all.
When you say "from what you've seen most of it is manufactured overseas" ... What's most.. 50% 80% 99%
That's not what you stated before.. you straight up called it laughable to think otherwise. & went on yammering about whos misimformed.. your words are there for all to see...
What.. now these statements have exceptions? Thats convenient..
In fact here they are again...
So which is it... Yes, "of course"... OR... It's laughable & everyone but you is misinformed..
To me notch is kind of like craftsman tools. Sears didn't manufacture the craftsman tools, but they had people who provided quality oversight to ensure that certain quality standards were met before the craftsman brand was put on it. I'm kind of relying on notch to provide that kind of a service.
Speaking of notch, i just bought a few of their wedges at the tree stuff flash sale. After I placed the order I saw that tree stuff carries red head wedges, and they were only a few dollars more per wedge and they are made in usa. Now I'm kicking myself. On any product I try to do a made in usa check. If the USA product looks good and isn't too much more than the imported one I'll buy USA. Wish I'd bought the red heads. Oh well, I'll find out if the notch wedges are any good.
Speaking of notch, i just bought a few of their wedges at the tree stuff flash sale. After I placed the order I saw that tree stuff carries red head wedges, and they were only a few dollars more per wedge and they are made in usa. Now I'm kicking myself. On any product I try to do a made in usa check. If the USA product looks good and isn't too much more than the imported one I'll buy USA. Wish I'd bought the red heads. Oh well, I'll find out if the notch wedges are any good.
DumpyMcDoodleface
New member
- Location
- My house
Well weirdly I got a notice about the following post that I can't seem to find (deleted maybe?):
So first: my goal here isn't to compare wieners. I'll lose every time. I really just want to share whatever knowledge or other perspective I might have to try to help people gain insight they might not have otherwise. With that said, it's apparent that some people don't really want to consider any new ideas or information before posting all the thoughts jangling around in their closed minds... But that's cool, I can roll with that. If I might give a piece of advice on that matter: If you won't consider that there's a possibility that the opinion you hold dear is wrong - at least take a few seconds to spell check and maybe try to defend your point of view with some facts. Otherwise, it's just too easy to dismiss your opinion, where it could have be an intelligent discussion or debate.
Wow, well that's a lot to unpack. Well, yes, I am comparing phones to arb gear. I bring it up because it pains me to see such ignorant and overbroad sentiments like "if it's made overseas it must be cheap crap." I mean I know you probably mean China, Taiwan, Vietnam, etc... And to be sure, lots of cheap crap is made in those countries. But I mean if you are in the US, overseas would also include countries known for quality: Germany, Japan, Italy, and doesn't include countries which have reputations for lower quality like Mexico and Canada. (Just kidding, Mexico isn't that bad...)
I brought up phones because if there are companies "overseas" that can manufacture tiny super computers that can connect to cell towers and satellites and wifi and take 4k video etc... There are probably factories over there that can make a climbing harness or a rope that doesn't suck.
Why buy from overseas? Yep cost. Labor is stupid cheap and resources plentiful. Plus probably a lot less compliance and regulatory red tape. Not necessarily a good thing to support, but that has no bearing on the ability to make a quality product.
Is Notch/Sherrill a reputable company? I dunno, it would seem that they are pretty decent so far. I mean even from a purely business point of view, they can't make unsafe products and succeed, nor could they be very low quality unless there's a clear expectation that the product is a value oriented product.
Who's doing all the stuff you mentioned? No idea, ask @bonner1040 . But based on your comments though, I would guess you actually know less about the subject than you think. Who do you think does all that stuff for the other brands?
So far, Notch seems to be using other known brands to make all their rated/safety components. So I'd guess pretty much everything falls on the manufacturers. In cases like this, which are extremely common, it's almost more of a partnership. Notch tells manufacturer (who knows the business), we want it like this, the manufacturer makes some up, notch tweaks it and they go back and forth until they settle on something they can both live with.
So the Sentinel is made by Edelrid. I bought one and returned it because I wasn't happy with the fit, but that had more to do with falling between the two sizes. I can't speak for how close it is to an Ergo, but I will say nothing seemed cheap about it and had it fit better I'd probably be flying that instead of the TreeMo I ended up splurging on.
You mean like Edelrid? Founded in 1863, inventors of kernmantle rope, major players in climbing gear for 150 years? To be fair, they aren't huge in the arb industry and they are overseas, being German and all. Gotta hate that low quality German stuff!
Anyway, some of that insight I mentioned: As someone who has personally performed hundreds of ANSI and ISO safety and compliance tests including seatbelt and roll over protection... it's much less high tech than you would think.
Engineering design teams typically do a fair bit of the testing, but frequently 3rd party testing and 3rd party auditing is used. Market tests are usually used for confirmation of functional quality.
Final production quality control typically falls on the manufacturer, where the threat of losing the business is the motivation to meet the quality expectations of the buyer. For ISO 9001 companies, fixed processes help guarantee the consistency of the product, which helps ensure the repeatability of the safety testing, so occasional audits of mass produced products are used to confirm the products still meet expectations.
jeff2423 said:
So first: my goal here isn't to compare wieners. I'll lose every time. I really just want to share whatever knowledge or other perspective I might have to try to help people gain insight they might not have otherwise. With that said, it's apparent that some people don't really want to consider any new ideas or information before posting all the thoughts jangling around in their closed minds... But that's cool, I can roll with that. If I might give a piece of advice on that matter: If you won't consider that there's a possibility that the opinion you hold dear is wrong - at least take a few seconds to spell check and maybe try to defend your point of view with some facts. Otherwise, it's just too easy to dismiss your opinion, where it could have be an intelligent discussion or debate.
jeff2423 said:
Wow, well that's a lot to unpack. Well, yes, I am comparing phones to arb gear. I bring it up because it pains me to see such ignorant and overbroad sentiments like "if it's made overseas it must be cheap crap." I mean I know you probably mean China, Taiwan, Vietnam, etc... And to be sure, lots of cheap crap is made in those countries. But I mean if you are in the US, overseas would also include countries known for quality: Germany, Japan, Italy, and doesn't include countries which have reputations for lower quality like Mexico and Canada. (Just kidding, Mexico isn't that bad...)
I brought up phones because if there are companies "overseas" that can manufacture tiny super computers that can connect to cell towers and satellites and wifi and take 4k video etc... There are probably factories over there that can make a climbing harness or a rope that doesn't suck.
Why buy from overseas? Yep cost. Labor is stupid cheap and resources plentiful. Plus probably a lot less compliance and regulatory red tape. Not necessarily a good thing to support, but that has no bearing on the ability to make a quality product.
Is Notch/Sherrill a reputable company? I dunno, it would seem that they are pretty decent so far. I mean even from a purely business point of view, they can't make unsafe products and succeed, nor could they be very low quality unless there's a clear expectation that the product is a value oriented product.
Who's doing all the stuff you mentioned? No idea, ask @bonner1040 . But based on your comments though, I would guess you actually know less about the subject than you think. Who do you think does all that stuff for the other brands?
So far, Notch seems to be using other known brands to make all their rated/safety components. So I'd guess pretty much everything falls on the manufacturers. In cases like this, which are extremely common, it's almost more of a partnership. Notch tells manufacturer (who knows the business), we want it like this, the manufacturer makes some up, notch tweaks it and they go back and forth until they settle on something they can both live with.
So the Sentinel is made by Edelrid. I bought one and returned it because I wasn't happy with the fit, but that had more to do with falling between the two sizes. I can't speak for how close it is to an Ergo, but I will say nothing seemed cheap about it and had it fit better I'd probably be flying that instead of the TreeMo I ended up splurging on.
You mean like Edelrid? Founded in 1863, inventors of kernmantle rope, major players in climbing gear for 150 years? To be fair, they aren't huge in the arb industry and they are overseas, being German and all. Gotta hate that low quality German stuff!
Anyway, some of that insight I mentioned: As someone who has personally performed hundreds of ANSI and ISO safety and compliance tests including seatbelt and roll over protection... it's much less high tech than you would think.
Engineering design teams typically do a fair bit of the testing, but frequently 3rd party testing and 3rd party auditing is used. Market tests are usually used for confirmation of functional quality.
Final production quality control typically falls on the manufacturer, where the threat of losing the business is the motivation to meet the quality expectations of the buyer. For ISO 9001 companies, fixed processes help guarantee the consistency of the product, which helps ensure the repeatability of the safety testing, so occasional audits of mass produced products are used to confirm the products still meet expectations.
Not to beat a dead horse, but one thing that bugs me about notch is their seeming lack of "contribution to the profession". There's probably a better word for it, but I mean what is it they contribute to the profession in which they sell their goods. The latest example I've noticed is with rope. If you go to Samson or Yale you will find tons of info on splicing their products. But go to notch website and there is no info on splicing. All those videos and research on splicing cost Samson and Yale lots of money, but it helps the people who buy their products. Yet there is nothing from notch. Notch, at least up to now, seems less willing to spend money supporting the people who buy their products.
I'm a realist and greedy. If notch products are say half the price of others, but of comparable quality, then the greed in me will likely buy notch. But notch often prices their products at or only slightly below their competitors. When the notch product is priced close to manufacturers who contribute more education and support to the industry, then I lean toward buying from the companies who seem to be in it for the long term.
I'm a realist and greedy. If notch products are say half the price of others, but of comparable quality, then the greed in me will likely buy notch. But notch often prices their products at or only slightly below their competitors. When the notch product is priced close to manufacturers who contribute more education and support to the industry, then I lean toward buying from the companies who seem to be in it for the long term.
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