bowline not as life support

It seems to me the line between personal preference and actual safety is what we r talking about. If a Yosemite bowline with an extra back up makes you feel safer, then I'm all for it. If you wanna single line with a dorsal attachment and an extra rope as back up, no problem. Tie into a locking clevise above the ball and buck strap into the hook, cool. But to say that a time tested knot is not "the right way" is incorrect.
 
Yo Yo , you posted junk . I think you learned from your post , you avoid the main problem with your post . Tying a knot loose and back feeding it will come untied on any situation . I'm, gonna call your card here , because I think you are full of it . What is your friends name that had a failed bowline ? The whole story , I want to know . I bet it never happened , WOW , bring him on , let's here his story . The only thing you got out of this thread was my attention . I am all for training , I just hate made up situations . We all have enough to deal with . Novice example , that tried to kill a reliable knot .
 
Novice forum? We all have the freedom to respond or not to respond to each post. If you are too experienced to offer a response then don't. Let the novices fend for themselves. What constitutes a novice? A novice to Tree Buzz or a novice to arboriculture? It seems many look at the # of posts and judge their experience from that.

I'm not saying there shouldn't be a novice specific forum to encourage teaching rather than ridicule, but that there should not be overwhelming ridicule on the other forums. Or is the novice forum to corral all the novices so they can't participate in any other?

I have been in this industry for long enough, but recently joined the Buzz where do I belong?
 
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Reg can you PM me about the 201t mod

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You don't want this mod, Steve. He explains it in this vid.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qk2QtwoG3J0&feature=youtube_gdata_player

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HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHHAHAHAHAH!!

Priceless!!
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Riggs, I give up, you are an experienced and knowledgeable climber but you are missing the point and you're not going to listen so there's really nothing more for me to write. I'm not bashing the bowline, I can tie it in all of its many forms and I would trust my life to it but there are so many better choices when it comes to life support.
Did it happen, could it happen again? Yes and possibly.
101 vs. Experienced? Once again check your accident reports.
 
It seems to be indisputable, in many of your minds, that the Bowline has a tendency to come loose. I see where you all are coming from, as I have never had a real issue with the bowline. However, I don't deny this is a factor. Rich's video demonstrates the well documented tendency of the bowline.

Just for interests sake I took three books off my shelf, four if you count "The Tree Climber's Companion" I have referred to before, and they support Rich's Warning. Again, Rich is not, I don't think, trying to ban the knot from use. He is simply demonstrating what has been said in the literature I have read.

The three/four books:

"The Fundamentals of General Tree Work"
'To lesson the problem of seizure from hard pulls, leave the top loop a little loose; in other words, don't form the knot too tightly."

- This one I included to show the thought of tying the knot looser rather than the jammed knot some have suggested.

"Arborists' Certification Study Guide"
'Not a good choice for attaching a climbing line to a carabiner or snap.
Backing up with a stopper knot recommended for some applications.'

"The Complete Book Of Knots"
'Neither a bend nor a hitch, the bowline (say 'boh-linn') is a knot that makes a fixed loop. It is far from the strongest loop knot, reducing the breaking strength of any stuff in which it is tied by as much as 40%. Nor is it very secure, particularly when the rope is stiff or slippery, when it has been known to capsize (if excessively loaded) or shake itself apart (when unloaded).'

"The Tree Climber's Companion"
"The Bowline does have a tendency to creep and potentially work loose, particularly in stiffer and slicker climbing lines. Therefore, it is strongly recommended that the Bowline be made more secure by using the Yosemite Tie Off, especially when used as a rope termination with the split-tail climbing system."


I am not saying anything about their credibility or anything, I am merely pointing out that it is a common trend that shows Rich had reason for sharing.
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I still think the Bowline deserve its fame as the King of all knots, but it has its place!
 
I googled around a bit... Found a few accidents where folks did not finish it maybe because of distractions

Mostly experienced climbers.....

Can find any related to a rewoven bowline aka bowline in a bite.

Can some explain how it's possible for it to come untied?

Start with single bowline with long tail, then retrace like you would a figure 8. I put a fishermens above this. Even without the back up, I can't understand how it could come untied
 
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Novice forum? We all have the freedom to respond or not to respond to each post. If you are too experienced to offer a response then don't. Let the novices fend for themselves. What constitutes a novice? A novice to Tree Buzz or a novice to arboriculture?

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Someone who who can't tie a bowline properly, for starters.

To me it just seems like a BS thread....where those making opposing views get completely ignored by the original poster. My 2 posts went without any acknowledge from the original poster....instead he chooses his fave (moss' post) which wasn't even a question, and highlights it as some kind of winner for all to learn from....'tied the right way'.

I haven't riduliculed anyone, but what I don't appreciate is BS and selective reading.
 
Knot threads sure get knotty.

I didn't even look at the video but I think it's the same one that caused all the uproar in a FB group a couple of months ago.

Bowline is a superb knot for many applications in tree work including life support. I use it every day.

But... bowlines could work loose if they are constantly unweighted. This can happen with the trend to basal tie on SRT. It's a relatively new use with different work characteristics to how we usually use bowlines. Therefore, the Yosemite tie off is a really smart idea in this application.

I don't bother in a rigging scenario.
 
With regards to the SRT anchoring, does anyone use the Mountaineering Bowline? Scroll down just a bit to see what I'm talking about.

http://bladesandbushcraft.com/index.php?topic=266.0

That is what I use when I base tie SRT or run it up for a canopy anchor. It is super secure and to me it's easier to tie than the Yosemite. If you haven't tried it you should.....
 
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It seems to be indisputable, in many of your minds, that the Bowline has a tendency to come loose. I see where you all are coming from, as I have never had a real issue with the bowline. However, I don't deny this is a factor. Rich's video demonstrates the well documented tendency of the bowline.



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Richs video demonstrates how not to tie a bowline. Can you not see that John? It is not the bowline that is unsafe.

Why in the world would anyone set such a huge eye (for a carabiner) and short tail....unless of course, they wanted it to come undone? Set a tight eye and long tail, see what happens. Nothing.
 
You are right Reg. I only thought that the bowline Rich tied in his video was intentionally tied to be loose and to come apart when he shook it in front of the camera so that the viewers didn't have to sit through the circumstances that could lead to this failure. Demonstration vs. Instruction. (Totally my work of fiction, but imagine a flight instructor inflicting damage to a planes wing before the pilot took off to plainly demonstrate what that would do to the overall behavior of the aircraft.)

I know that's pretty far out there, but that's the first thing that came to my mind. The demonstration did not start with a functioning knot because it would take some doing to get to that point. It would be inadvisable to damage a plane's wing before lift off, just as it would be inadvisable to climb on the knot Rich tied for his demonstration.

The knot does have precautions out there advising further steps to using it safely. Could Rich have made a better video? Perhaps, but his advisement did get a lot of attention just as he presented it...don't you think?

Reg, I understand your point and realize your frustration, but this could all come down to the intentions of the original post.

I, a strong believer in the bowline, did not take offense to the video as many of you did. I could have misunderstood Rich's intention, but I thought it to be nothing more than a demonstration of these precautions stated in books and by our colleagues.

You are right though Reg! The bowline is not likely to have issues if it is tied correctly and well attended to...and that, I think, is the moral of this long story.
 
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The knot does have precautions out there advising further steps to using it safely. Could Rich have made a better video? Perhaps, but his advisement did get a lot of attention just as he presented it...don't you think?




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Attention for mostly the wrong reason....because the video was a bad representation of a knot, without acknowledgement of that, or comparative. It BS, and the type of thing that is diluting the forum from what it used to be.
 
I am sorry Reg. It sounds hard for you Pooh-Bah Buzzers who remember the good old days. I am new to the Buzz and am unfamiliar with the way things were. That was the Good, now we are on to the Bad and the Ugly. I don't want to get in anyones way and will step aside, but I am enjoying the Buzz - even what it is now. I have enjoyed learning from the more learned, and I thank you all for humoring me.
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I hope I am not diluting your appreciation for the Buzz.

Signing off.
 
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I am sorry Reg. It sounds hard for you Pooh-Bah Buzzers who remember the good old days. I am new to the Buzz and am unfamiliar with the way things were. That was the Good, now we are on to the Bad and the Ugly. I don't want to get in anyones way and will step aside, but I am enjoying the Buzz - even what it is now. I have enjoyed learning from the more learned, and I thank you all for humoring me.
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I hope I am not diluting your appreciation for the Buzz.

Signing off.

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Don't be sorry John, its only how I see it. Enjoy the forum by all means. I've acquired both friends and associates here that I otherwise wouldn't have....for which I'm very grateful for. My only advice would be - if you are looking to make inroads or try to influence people here, do it on merit and sincerity....not bullsh it.
 
Came home,.....more blah blah....it is a knot, not rocket science....back and forth like the warm breeze....I am enjoying at the moment....any knot tied wrong and not set is just that wrong, I did a long monotonous prune last week SRT with my Rope Runner and was back and forth up and down on one of our amazing wide azz Pride of India's...a damn sexy tropical tree maybe 60 to 70 years old...used my faithful bowline TIP...went back at the end to use a pinto and alpine so I could retrieve it....that knot was still beautifully TIGHT...cause it was tied, dressed and set right...blah blah...BLAM...next issue I disliked Reg's dissing the 201t vid...but hey to each his own...mine is six months with muffler mod and timing advance that I did myself....cuts faster than my two year old 200t and eats the hardwoods I cut down here like paper....who cares...I certainly don't, no husky dealers here so I have always used Stihl...but my 201t smokes some wood...lol..might just get the 540XP just for kicks....see if that is all that....
 
Hey maybe I am on edge after crown raising some nasty Kapok Tree....spikes everywhere...nothing a little hydrogen peroxide could not solve...life in the tropics....all SRT on my beloved RR.....
 
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Came home,.....more blah blah....it is a knot, not rocket science....back and forth like the warm breeze....I am enjoying at the moment....any knot tied wrong and not set is just that wrong, I did a long monotonous prune last week SRT with my Rope Runner and was back and forth up and down on one of our amazing wide azz Pride of India's...a damn sexy tropical tree maybe 60 to 70 years old...used my faithful bowline TIP...went back at the end to use a pinto and alpine so I could retrieve it....that knot was still beautifully TIGHT...cause it was tied, dressed and set right...blah blah...BLAM...next issue I disliked Reg's dissing the 201t vid...but hey to each his own...mine is six months with muffler mod and timing advance that I did myself....cuts faster than my two year old 200t and eats the hardwoods I cut down here like paper....who cares...I certainly don't, no husky dealers here so I have always used Stihl...but my 201t smokes some wood...lol..might just get the 540XP just for kicks....see if that is all that

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I never posted the chainsaw video on treebuzz, with good reason. After being mislead by my local still dealer at the time of purchase....and after suffering its performance for over 2 years, I made a short video of how I felt about it. Why would you bring that up ? I've painstakingly edited and hosted over a hundred videos here on treebuzz, and just as many quality photo sets. Developed and launched several products right here also. Never skipped or avoided a single question throughout.

What have you contributed during your time here swing ?

Why would you pick out a video that I didn't even host on treebuzz and use it in an attempt to discredit me....despite everything else that I put in over the years ?
 
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