bowline not as life support

I'm not saying it isn't an awesome not. Not even close to what I'm saying. I use it too. Just for certain applications and backed up with a Yosemite or a fishermans.
 
Wow, six pages on this....DAMN....lookie here...KNOTS,KNOTS folks are to be CAREFULLY tied, then DRESSED......THEN SET.....PERIOD,,,it's just common sense...as tree folk we should KNOW this.....BOO HOOO...BANG..RIGGSY is right on this one...He can be brash but he is right a lot...think it was when he was dropped on his head as a kid...but hey my mom threw me away as a kid...I'm alright....sort of...
bangtard.gif
 
My take away from this thread:

1. Use spliced eyes for lifelines. If you haven't already started its time to.

2. If you must use a bowline as life support, tie it properly, preferably with a yosemite backup.

3. a number of new entries for my Little Golden Book of Riggsisms: Lessons from a Salty Old Dog for Cheeky Young Pups. (listed below in descending order) Thanks Riggs!

- "tie it right, it will stay tight!"

- "I could use any knot I tie for life support, its KNOT coming undone"

- "Becoming groundhog day around here."

- "Smoke your weed, drink your drink, limp wrist all you want while tying and trying--don't blame the knot for a limp wristed tier."

- "clowns. com"

- "don't get on board when your bored"

- "Break out the marshmallows!"

-"Don't blame the knot blame the cannot"
 
Ok, I'm so exhausted by this thread that I have to type. 15 years of tree work. Initially I used the clove as a tie off for limbs. Somebody told me it would eventually roll out. I said no way. It did. Nothing happened but the limb his the ground hard and the rope laughed at me. As so far as the bowline. In 15 years I have never seen one come undone. I tie dress set and slip the knot around to the other side of the limb so it has tension on it as soon as the line is put in the porty. If I have doubts I butt hitch it with a half hitch. The thing I have seen is a bad cut with a limb splitting spreading the bowline and the limb falling out of it. I have never used a yosimitie tie off. I do not routinely climb off a bowline unless i'm sailing down a stick so it can be dropped. I no longer do that only because I had been riding the load line and that ALWAYS makes me uncomfortable. The one thing I would do is still have my flip line around the spar just incase. I'm pretty comfortable with the bowline but this thread has made me look a little closer at how I apply the bowline. I don't want to jump on either side of this less than cheerful discussion but I WILL NOT throw stones at any of you for your opinions. Some of you guys have a world more experience than I do so who am I to tell anybody they're wrong or reckless. I guess thats what I have a little problem with. I get much more out of the buzz from just sitting back and listening to you guys battle it out than I do throwing in a poke here and a blast there. Unless I have a significant contribution to the thread i'm a lurker. So you may ask, why did you post since you've not contributed significantly th this thred? My answer.......I was bored. LOL
 
If it makes anyone feel any better a similar dialogue is occurring in the rock climbing community.

Swing, yes, tie ,DRESS, AND SET! On the other hand, there are a plethora of knots out there for a variety of applications. Use the one that is best suited to the use and the ropes being used.

We can have a discussion about this or anything else, without it becoming personal. Sure it's idle time and even idle thinking. So, let's be civil about it.
 
Incidentally, ever thought why there are different knots? Why don't we use the same great knot for everything?

Because each knot was designed to fit a specific purpose.
 
Let’s cut back to a blank slate here.

“BOWLINE IS A SOLID KNOT - HALL OF FAME KNOT”

Riggs speaks the truth!

Riggs has been around as long (of course longer) as Tree Buzz. I owe homage to Riggs as the Tree Buzz elder that he is.

I respect his perspective on the Bowline: Tied correctly it is a very serviceable knot.
My only concern with the knot: One of the bowlines strongest qualities is its ability to be untied even after being under substantial loads. This is not my concern…I love it for that. My concern with the knot is that having this ability it tends to be a knot that is more likely to work its way loose. Am I concerned enough to discontinue the use? NO. I only take it for what it is and the awareness of this makes me better handle the knot in any circumstance. If I use the bowline in a life support situation I back it up! In most rigging situations I don’t even use a Y-tie off, unless it is needed.

‘The Tree Climber's Companion’ says "The Bowline does have a tendency to creep and potentially work loose, particularly in stiffer and slicker climbing lines. Therefore, it is strongly recommended that the Bowline be made more secure by using the Yosemite Tie Off, especially when used as a rope termination with the split-tail climbing system."

Thanks everyone for the dialogue. I think it has been beneficial even if it also has been exhausting.

Sorry for my part in it.

Also do we need to distinguish between a bowline and a running bowline?
Seems to me the running bowline, by nature, loads the knot in a way that the base bowline by itself does not have that added bonus. Just a thought.
 
I hope when the forum gets updated, they open a novice forum, because thats where this thread belongs....how to tie a knot properly.

Richard, a knot, be-it a bowline or other needs a purpose to work and be worth something. Shaking a loosely tied redundant knot around in your shop doesn't make for any kind of argument. If you'd set it properly and loaded it, and then it came undone on its own....that would really mean something. But you didn't, and it wouldn't.

A bowline might not cinch up on a carabiner (unless you set a larks foot), but it cinches on itself, as knots do.

You guys should post more real-life jobs and scenarios as examples and points of discussion, as opposed to negative, worrying, what-if topics. They're not cool.

Here's a bowline example even, a back leaning cedar we pulled with the truck last week. Just a simple bowline to my truck, no frills or stop knots. Just tied as it should. No its not the life support I think you mean in the title, but probably my life woulda been in jeopardy had it gone wrong and landed on the house. But it didn't, because I know how to cut a tree, tie a bowline and roughly how much resistance is in that tree. So perhaps not much to talk over after-all....but at least its real.

FWIW I climbed on a bowline for 15 years without incident. I wasn't lucky, I just tied the knot and paid attention throughout.

Edit: Treebuzz not taking photos today it seems. Heres a video: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6zNnRfWwPOo&list=UUpYc97NCVnOjJtrDQlQjtbA&feature=share
 
Setting off to my shop to start hammer testing all my aluminum gear......
Heading out Sunday to climb with my infamous re-woven bowline tie in.......


........tell my wife I love her....
 
Yoyo, just wanted say again I appreciate your videos and your insight. I get the purpose of your original post and there was nothing at all wrong with it.
 
"...and paid attention throughout." That's the moral of the story. Long and epic that it was. Whatever you tie, our for that matter use, pay attention to it. Don't assume that it's infallible.

Reg has made a great point, a novice forum. There people could discuss some basic stuff.
 
Novice forum is a good idea, but how would it work? Novice asks reasonable but previously posed question, 323 self anointed "experts" answer, usually sardonically? Seems a lot like the way things are right now.

But if the novice forum means the rookie gets a pass from the scoffing and ridicule (for asking the simple questions everyone needed an answer to at some point) then I'm all for it. And it should be noted that there are many exceptions to the first paragraph. Lots of genuinely knowledgeable, interested and concerned guys here.

PS- I like your 201T mod Reg. It did hold up pretty well under pressure though.
 
[ QUOTE ]
Novice forum is a good idea, but how would it work? Novice asks reasonable but previously posed question, 323 self anointed "experts" answer, usually sardonically? Seems a lot like the way things are right now.

But if the novice forum means the rookie gets a pass from the scoffing and ridicule (for asking the simple questions everyone needed an answer to at some point) then I'm all for it. And it should be noted that there are many exceptions to the first paragraph. Lots of genuinely knowledgeable, interested and concerned guys here.

PS- I like your 201T mod Reg. It did hold up pretty well under pressure though.

[/ QUOTE ]

they call it 'Arborist 101' on Arboristsite. Seems to work pretty well there with very little ridicule. New guys are not afraid to ask questions, and plenty of experienced guys taking the time to answer as best they can.
 
Wow....I set out to show the possible failure of an improperly tied, dressed, set and configured knot, my expectations were exceeded. Thanks to each and everyone of you for your valuable input and contribution to making climbing safer.

Moss I hope you don't mind but I think your example and explanation is the perfect example of the "how to do it right" way.

again, thanks to each of you!!!!!!!



[ QUOTE ]
Richard, I like your demonstration of accidentally clipping into the bight of the Yosemite tie-off. I use a Running Bowline frequently for a cinched SRT anchor, have been for years. I believe a well tied and set Bowline with a Yosemite tie-off (I like to put the tail up through the opposite side, it snugs up better) is life support quality but I don't let the fates intervene when a knot will be run up the rope nearly out of sight. I leave enough tail above the Yosemite tie-off to finish it with a double overhand knot around the line above the Bowline. Anyway... it's ridiculously bomb-proof, easy to add in, and still easy to quickly untie the whole deal no matter how hard it's been loaded. I've been ridiculed in the past for making a double backed up Running Bowline but then again I'm still here. ;-)

Like so:
12920024383_5737e7647f_c.jpg


As far as attaching to a carabiner goes, never ever liked a Bowline, just the fact it is non-cinching on the biner is enough to reject it for that use.
-AJ

[/ QUOTE ]
 
[ QUOTE ]
Wow....I set out to show the possible failure of an improperly tied, dressed, set and configured knot, my expectations were exceeded. Thanks to each and everyone of you for your valuable input and contribution to making climbing safer.

Moss I hope you don't mind but I think your example and explanation is the perfect example of the "how to do it right" way.

again, thanks to each of you!!!!!!!



[ QUOTE ]
Richard, I like your demonstration of accidentally clipping into the bight of the Yosemite tie-off. I use a Running Bowline frequently for a cinched SRT anchor, have been for years. I believe a well tied and set Bowline with a Yosemite tie-off (I like to put the tail up through the opposite side, it snugs up better) is life support quality but I don't let the fates intervene when a knot will be run up the rope nearly out of sight. I leave enough tail above the Yosemite tie-off to finish it with a double overhand knot around the line above the Bowline. Anyway... it's ridiculously bomb-proof, easy to add in, and still easy to quickly untie the whole deal no matter how hard it's been loaded. I've been ridiculed in the past for making a double backed up Running Bowline but then again I'm still here. ;-)

Like so:
12920024383_5737e7647f_c.jpg


As far as attaching to a carabiner goes, never ever liked a Bowline, just the fact it is non-cinching on the biner is enough to reject it for that use.
-AJ

[/ QUOTE ]

[/ QUOTE ]


Mate, your video/demo counts for nothing.... Dressed or not, the knot wasn't loaded. Its like putting an unloaded friction hitch on a line, shaking it about until it slides up and down, then saying a friction hitch is unsafe.

Moss' knot is a good knot, but for you call it 'the right way'? Please define 'the right way ' ?
 
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