bowline not as life support

What u don't seem to get is that if you halfass tie ANY termination knot and give it a shake, it's probably going to come apart. Just cuz you point a camera at it doesn't make it a valid P.S.A.
John, don't poke the Riggs bear.
 
John, what it seems to be is an improperly dressed and set bowline is hazardous. We are talking about a knot that has historically been considered one of the 4 main knots for anyone to learn. While you may have presented a valid point it's in the delivery that people and specifically Buzzers tend to take exception to. This is the internet after all so expect some to be tactless in their responses.

Here's something on wiki that gives a history of the knot and references the deficiencies of the bowline.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bowline

The bowline is supposed to retain 2/3 of the ropes strength.

It's not known as the "King of Knots" for nothing!
 
The bowline is my favorite of all time -I use it whenever I can. I guess I got a little carried away. I just wanted to point out that Rich tied it loose on the video for demonstration only, which seemed to be what most were tearing into so completely. Things are done differently for demonstration. Like when showing someone how to tie a bowline do you show them a loosely tied or a really tight knot. You are a super buzzer treehumper and everyone can benefit from your posts. Thanks.

Those bowlines on wikipedia are nicely tied aren't they!
wink.gif


Long live the bowline and long live all of us using it!
 
I use a bowline just as Moss did for an srt tie off and make sure it looks just as Moss's did. Mumford's vid did nothing to convince me of the subject line of this thread. The thread has come apart more than the knot. This thread title should be: "Bowline 'can' role out if not properly dressed and set".

This would open up a discussion as to the proper uses and the proper ways to tie a bowline.

Don't mess with my bowline.
 
"We all should keep in mind the need to keep ourselves safe up there in the canopy, and keep everyone on the ground safe as well. Maybe you think you are bomb proof, but for everyone else's safety keep in mind that knots do have their weaknesses."
- You got it , everybody goes home .

"Did you know that a knot decreases the strength in the rope? "
- next thing your gonna ask me is if I use a throwline ? Becoming groundhog day around here .
 
I'm sorry I wasn't addressing you specifically Riggs. I was just throwing that 'knot decreases strength' out there to build on the idea that there are precautions we need to take to make sure everyone goes home. Don't use the same knot for every circumstance, don't use the same rope past its life, don't tie a knot without considering that it is designed be untied and needs the proper attention -especially if there is a life or lives depending on it.

This thread has strayed from the original subject, and I am partially to blame for that, but we needed a direction to go and we weren't getting very far at the start. I have appreciated all your responses and have taken a closer look at the bowline as I reflected on Richard's point. It has helped me to think about a knot before I use it - not that I am saying the bowlines application has changed for me, but that I shouldn't take any knot even the bowline for granted just because it is the bomb!

The bowline is one of, if not, THE greatest knot ever to tie its way into my heart. I pray to the bowline gods to keep me safe, and you should too.

Thanks for all the feedback. I think we're done.
 
[ QUOTE ]
... I think we're done.

[/ QUOTE ]

No, not quite yet. I find it interesting, that in these discussions on knots, the focus is on the knot, as if it could stand alone. But of course that is imposable.

A knot is married to the line. You cannot have one without the other and the attributes of each, will have an effect on the outcome of how they work together.
 
Can someone tell me how to video the failure of a properly tied, dressed and set knot?
In my next video they will be properly tied but I suspect some of you won't like it.
Nice lively discussion, I think it keeps us thinking and That is the POINT.

P.S. The videos are not to demonstrate my knowledge but my learning, you all teach me a lot but most of all inspire more thought and more learning. Cheers
 
[ QUOTE ]
Can someone tell me how to video the failure of a properly tied, dressed and set knot?


[/ QUOTE ]

That's the whole point. Properly dressed and set should keep the knot from coming apart in a properly used set up.

And I couldn't agree more about brain stimulation, it will keep us all out of danger.
 
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
... I think we're done.

[/ QUOTE ]

No, not quite yet. I find it interesting, that in these discussions on knots, the focus is on the knot, as if it could stand alone. But of course that is imposable.

A knot is married to the line. You cannot have one without the other and the attributes of each, will have an effect on the outcome of how they work together.

[/ QUOTE ]

So some knots shouldn't be used with certain lines?
 
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
... I think we're done.

[/ QUOTE ]

No, not quite yet. I find it interesting, that in these discussions on knots, the focus is on the knot, as if it could stand alone. But of course that is imposable.

A knot is married to the line. You cannot have one without the other and the attributes of each, will have an effect on the outcome of how they work together.

[/ QUOTE ]

So some knots shouldn't be used with certain lines?

[/ QUOTE ] [ QUOTE ]


[/ QUOTE ]

Absolutely
 
" I'm sorry I wasn't addressing you specifically Riggs."

you did , it's okay .

and now your buddy is owning up .

Listen , say what you want about me , but TREEBUZZ has been online for a long time and this is not amateur hour , want to teach ... dot your I's and cross your T's . Your not the first person to back peddle . Want to teach bring your " A " game . For the record , we wouldn't be this far in this thread if I didn't point out how wrong the video presented a knot . An oil tank ? really ? hardest winter ever and a loose knot on a home breaker . Get real , please . That was one of the worst teaching videos I have ever seen , ever .
I'm not getting on that guys helicopter , sorry .
 
Tie & dress a bowline in New England's Escalator. Give the end of that line a good shake for 30 seconds. Tell me it is still secure, Mr. Riggs.
 
really ? I can't remember the last New England rope I bought . all that aside , I'll buy it , give it a shake . Somebody have twenty feet to send me ? Sounds like you got a story to tell or a friend to defend . Wait ... I smell it . A roma !
 
[ QUOTE ]
"
I could use any knot I tie for life support , it's KNOT coming undone .

[/ QUOTE ]

LOL. Your statement was inspirational and motivating.
Be safe. Live long and prosper.
 
I HAVE seen a running bowline come undone... thought I mis-tied it, BUT a review of the video showed it had been properly tied.. Might not have been set well enough.. stiff rope, heavy top, shock load.. should have used a half hitch below, left a little more tail, and set it better...

That'll change your mind about a knot...

I still use it all the time in rigging, usually with the Y tie off and a foot or more of tail.

Worked with a highly experienced rock climber recently.. asked him to tie a running bowline and he couldn't do it..
he later reminded me that the rock climbing community gave up on the bowline in 80's. There is a good reason for that.

Its clear that the bowline is not to be used to tie into a life support biner... anyone that wants to argue that point needs to up their game..
 
In rock climbing you're not loading the rope as we do. Personally I don't use it for my tie in. A buntline hitch does it for me when I don't have an eye.
 
One reason that the bowline isn't used for a tie in while rock/ice climbing is that it isn't as easy to visually check as a FB Follow-through. At a quick glance a partner or climber can see that the F8Ft can be identified. No doubt, the F8Ft is more secure. Arbos seem to have gotten good behavior from the bowline though.
 
Perhaps a slight derail- what do most arbos use the bowline for, anyway? The running bowline I get. Use it all day every day. Double Fisherman's, Anchor Hitch, Alpine Butterfly have uses. But the standard bowline? What situation is it commonly used in? Last good use I saw for it was tying my dad's boat to a piling.

Seriously- I'm open to ideas. I'll definitely use it if it's the best choice for any application. (I guess we did use it a few months back as one termination end of a highline for a block to run on.) Few and far between.
 
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