Bowline as an endline knot

treesandsurf

treesandsurf

Location
Hawaii
Is the traditional bowline considered an acceptable knot to use as an endline termination knot for life support?

There's been some debate in the past about whether or not it is an acceptable knot to use for life support; I've heard it is, only when tied with a yosemite tie off or similar, or when using the tail end to make a friction hitch (i.e w/o split tail)...?

jp
grin.gif
 
A bowline is a poor choice for this application. While a strong knot with many great properties and endless applications, it does not do well with the constant slacking and tightening involved as a life support termination knot in a doubled rope climbing system.

The Grapevine/Scaffold knot, Buntline hitch, or Anchor hitch are noose knot type constructions. As such they are much better suited to this application becasue of their cinching ability and tendency to stay tight with repeated slackening.

Tony
 
The bowline is the King of Knots. I used it for many years as a termination knot in a tail-tied system. I was using a Bry-Dan saddle at the time and we ran the bowline directly through the leg straps and waist belt (no carabiner).

Things have changed. Climbing systems have become more diverse and complex (and far more efficient) that require different knots. The bowline's primary attribute is also its failing when used in the current systems and that is the fact that it never "sets". It is always very easy to untie.

The second failing is the lack of binding to the carabiner, which can cause it to side load the gate, which could cause a failure.

Dave
 
From ANSI Z133 2006

8.1.3 Climbing lines used in a split-tail system and split-tails shall be terminated with an eye splice or a knot that interfaces appropriately with the connecting link that it is attached to. The termination knot selected shall remain secure under normal loading and unloading. When using a carabiner without a captive eye, the knot or eye splice shall cinch in place to prevent the accidental opening and/or side-loading of the carabiner.

A bowline could be tied with a large bite and then girth hitched onto a biner. But...that is a really awkward solution for termination. A scaffold is much better.
 
[ QUOTE ]
When using a carabiner without a captive eye, the knot or eye splice shall cinch in place to prevent the accidental opening and/or side-loading of the carabiner.



[/ QUOTE ]

Because the bowline with a yosemite lock-off does not cinch, it would not be an acceptable termination knot as well?

jp
grin.gif
 
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
When using a carabiner without a captive eye, the knot or eye splice shall cinch in place to prevent the accidental opening and/or side-loading of the carabiner.



[/ QUOTE ]

Because the bowline with a yosemite lock-off does not cinch, it would not be an acceptable termination knot as well?

[/ QUOTE ]

Correct! It shall be a cinching knot.
 
Seems to me a couple of issues here.

1. Is a bowline a secure knot for life support in itself? yes if tied correctly and backed up. Yosemite is my preference.

2. Is a bowline secure when clipped to a karabiner? Its an interface thing between components. This is really a karabiner alignment issue - the bowline can cause the karabiner to cross load and /or the rope can foul the gate. But if you use a captive eye krab or snap, no issue with a secured bowline.

The scaffold is more secure and quick to tie like this:
http://www.treemettlenexus.com/class1.html
 
[ QUOTE ]
Is the traditional bowline considered an acceptable knot to use as an endline termination knot for life support?

[/ QUOTE ]

IMHO yes, it is the best knot to use for and endline termination attachment. Once tied, dressed and set the Bowline is a far superior knot to the pathetic buntline, woeful anchor hitch and convoluted scaffold.

The Buntline and anchor hitches are extremely dangerous hitches to be using as end line knots despite their cinching/choking abilities. There is just too much room for error with these hitches, especially when you are multiple tying and untying during a climb to prevent the rope getting caught in tight crotches.

Although a great hitch - the scaffold takes too long to undo once it's been loaded with the climber's weight unlike the easliy breakable and all round friendly bowline.

[ QUOTE ]

There's been some debate in the past about whether or not it is an acceptable knot to use for life support; I've heard it is, only when tied with a yosemite tie off

[/ QUOTE ]

IMHO The yosemite is a classic example of people trying to be too clever for their own good. The yosemite actually turns the perfectly simple and safe bowline into a monster.

People have been known to accidently tie into an accidently loosened tie off bight mid climb only to find themselves freefallin through the tree moments later. The yosemite tie off on the bowline should be put on the list of banned knots in arboriculture along with the buntline and anchor hitch.

Why people should continue to berate and denounce the bowline is beyond me. You guys just dont know a good thing when you've got it.
 
I have no problems untying a scaffold (dbl fishermans) at all. In fact I can do it faster than untying a bowline. Even after being loaded.

Plain and simple-- the bowline is a poor choice for endline termination, unless its tied into a captive eye.
 
[ QUOTE ]

Plain and simple-- the bowline is a poor choice for endline termination, unless its tied into a captive eye.

[/ QUOTE ]

How can you go from a poor choice to acceptable with the addition of a captive eye?

So what your saying is if everyone used captive eye biners the best termination knot would be a bowline? If so I agree.

The static loop of the bowline rarely interferes with the gates of regular biners and when it does it acts as a timely reminder to always be checking your gear. OK, you got me on that one. That's always annoyed me....but now I just tie Tommy D's choked bowline.
 
Yes, I much prefer the simplicity and compactness of the scaffold knot, but we're trying to figure out if we're going to allow the bowline to be used at a workshop, and it looks like it won't be.

jp
grin.gif
 
[ QUOTE ]
we're trying to figure out if we're going to allow the bowline to be used at a workshop, and it looks like it won't be.

jp
grin.gif


[/ QUOTE ]

jp, to not allow the Bowline as an endline knot during a treeclimbing workshop would be somewhat akin to Laurel being told he can no longer act with Hardy.
It just can't happen. Include the bowline for the sake of all right minded and freethinking treeclimbers worldwide.

LaurelHardyL_468x319.jpg
 
I'm sure there are better knots, but the bowline is fine, It was still being taught in the UK in 2005..
I tie mine real small, nice long tail with a stopper, never had it creep, no problem with loading.

The Yosemite tieoff is an accident waiting to happen, too easy to reclip into the tucked tail instead of the loop.

I tried the fishermans (double or otherwise) for a while, I liked its cinching property, but when tossed up for re-crotching or a changeover, the loop would inevitably pull smaller, hard to get the crab back in, or pull right out. (I suppose I could untie it/retie it) I climb with one crab, both splittail and termination on the same crab.

Again, I'm sure there are people who prefer other knots,and I might find one I like instead, but when used properly there is nothing wrong with a bowline. I like splices better though!
 
[ QUOTE ]
I'm sure there are better knots, but the bowline is fine, It was still being taught in the UK in 2005..
I tie mine real small, nice long tail with a stopper, never had it creep, no problem with loading.

The Yosemite tieoff is an accident waiting to happen, too easy to reclip into the tucked tail instead of the loop.

I tried the fishermans (double or otherwise) for a while, I liked its cinching property, but when tossed up for re-crotching or a changeover, the loop would inevitably pull smaller, hard to get the crab back in, or pull right out. (I suppose I could untie it/retie it) I climb with one crab, both splittail and termination on the same crab.

Again, I'm sure there are people who prefer other knots,and I might find one I like instead, but when used properly there is nothing wrong with a bowline. I like splices better though!

[/ QUOTE ]

Excellent post Bermie.
 
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]

Plain and simple-- the bowline is a poor choice for endline termination, unless its tied into a captive eye.

[/ QUOTE ]

How can you go from a poor choice to acceptable with the addition of a captive eye?

So what your saying is if everyone used captive eye biners the best termination knot would be a bowline? If so I agree.

The static loop of the bowline rarely interferes with the gates of regular biners and when it does it acts as a timely reminder to always be checking your gear. OK, you got me on that one. That's always annoyed me....but now I just tie Tommy D's choked bowline.

[/ QUOTE ]

ah duh!

Its acceptable only where a cinching knot is knot needed, EI- a captive eye biner. The reason for a cinching knot is to keep biners from potentially crossloading. Not an issue with a captive eye is it? Is it THE BEST knot for use with a captive eye? IMO no, but it is acceptable.

Do you comprehend now? your holy Ekkaniss.
 
You must log in or register to reply here.

New threads New posts

Back
Top Bottom