Basic Flaws in Mr. Rigguy's Cabling Design

[jomoco]

Re: Basic Flaws in Mr. Rigguy\'s Cabling Design

Love to see any pics of J lags holding in any pine.

This is what happens using them in ficus trees.

That lag came out of this Moreton Bay Fig.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5avqx5bSyRo


jomoco

 

[Mark Chisholm]

Re: Basic Flaws in Mr. Rigguy\'s Cabling Design

[ QUOTE ]
t's like we were separated at birth, and then you became a great tree guy, and I slogged along using a pole saw in a tree, but now we both come to the same conclusion

[/ QUOTE ]
Maybe we're like the corsican brothers or something?

 

[Mark Chisholm]

Re: Basic Flaws in Mr. Rigguy\'s Cabling Design

[ QUOTE ]
It's a shame you are wrong about something Mark.

[/ QUOTE ]
You don't know the half of it!

I don't think I'm wrong here though. I personally feel that J lags for most situations are not the best possible choice. Problem is you can't always know if you are right or wrong on something like this. I mean, we cable things because we see a flaw and we try to mitigate a risk. But, how do we know we really needed to do that if it never fails? How many situations have you seen that suprised you that it hadn't failed before you saw it?

Most of the failed cables I've seen were J lags pulled out or quick ties that snapped.

 

[easyphloem]

Re: Basic Flaws in Mr. Rigguy\'s Cabling Design

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
t's like we were separated at birth, and then you became a great tree guy, and I slogged along using a pole saw in a tree, but now we both come to the same conclusion

[/ QUOTE ]
Maybe we're like the corsican brothers or something?

[/ QUOTE ]


I'm all about avenging my family's untimely demise. I always knew you were about that kind of thing too.



SZ

 

[theXman]

Re: Basic Flaws in Mr. Rigguy\'s Cabling Design

[ QUOTE ]
But, how do we know we really needed to do that if it never fails? <font color="red"> How many situations have you seen that suprised you that it hadn't failed before you saw it?
</font>


[/ QUOTE ]

VERY good point.

look at this tree, norway maple, tall, and fully leaved and solid crown up top. look at the decay and old v split in the base.

i chained it when i looked at it, until we removed it about a week later. because it didn't look like it should stand another day. and you know it must have been this bad for at least a year or more.

 

[jomoco]

Re: Basic Flaws in Mr. Rigguy\'s Cabling Design

It's kinda funny to me that my two most recent cabling jobs both had failed J lags in them, an historic fig and two torrey pines, every lagged cable in them had either failed or were in the process of failing.

I kept thinking to myself, don't these idiots know that lags don't work in softwood trees?

I'm sure they'll all be relieved to learn their stupidity is fully endorsed by the leading authorities on professional cabling and bracing.

What an absurd fiasco!

jomoco

 

[theXman]

Re: Basic Flaws in Mr. Rigguy\'s Cabling Design

another thing, i can't think of a single time I have seen decay around a j-lag. even, really old ones.

i have seen decay around through bolts though, seems like the pressure of the washer kills the tissue underneith it.

honestly, not a single time seeing decay around a j-lag. I'm sure it happens, especially if the drill hits decay it is sure to happen.

i have a neat section of wood with a through bolt/washer and nut, i kept. really cool how the cavity is the same shape as the washer. i will take a picture tomorrow maybe.
----------------

grown over hardware picture, tree resembles a mammal huh?

 

[jomoco]

Re: Basic Flaws in Mr. Rigguy\'s Cabling Design

Excellent pic Xman!

Was the cable broken on the other end?

If so, where?

Type of tree please?

jomoco

 

[guymayor]

Re: Basic Flaws in Mr. Rigguy\'s Cabling Design

"ansi a300 38.5 states lagthread hardware shall only be onstalled in sound wood... Also 40.4.1 states through bracing shall be used in decayed or weak wood chacteristic trees...just found it, nothing about softwood but I would think weak wood as the same....."

yo shovel I agree, in the 2006 support standard it is 33.5.6, agreeing with jomoco, so he can please get off his anti-org soapbox--careful bud soap is slippery sheesh.

ANSI is not going to tell you exactly what to do; you still gotta think, and don't sit there in san diego enlarging generalities that we 3000 miles should follow, ok?

Thank you sir!

 

[Tom Dunlap]

Re: Basic Flaws in Mr. Rigguy\'s Cabling Design

Jomoco,

You really need to buy a copy of the A300-Cabling and bracing standard. The BMP booklet is useful too.

Do you understand the ANSI process? There is a comment form that you can complete and return so that the committee reads about your concerns.

ISA and TCIA do NOT enforce or have any part of the process of making the standards. The process is driven by those of us in the profession...as volunteers.

A blanket statement saying that lags shouldn't be used in softwood just doesn't make sense.

My pictures of cabling samples are buried in boxes of prints and slides. I wish that they were scanned and available but they aren't. There are pictures of incredible compartmentalization around lags and through bolts...and there are rotted out pieces in of all species, burr oak.

 

[jomoco]

Re: Basic Flaws in Mr. Rigguy\'s Cabling Design

Until ANSI specifically states that lag use in softwood trees is forbidden, their standard will be flawed and conducive to future cabling failures with the potential to damage people and property.

Softwood is softwood regardless of which coast you're on Guy.

This aint rocket science, it's common sense being applied to standards that increase safety and quality of workmanship.

Why not correct the problem before it lands you in court as a defendant?

jomoco

 

[Tom Dunlap]

Re: Basic Flaws in Mr. Rigguy\'s Cabling Design

"Common sense is the practical application of everything that you know"---Jim Sebesta

What you know is different than what I know.

I think that if there were court cases dealing with failed cables the standard would reflect this. You make it sound like the ANSI committee members are a crew of disconnected technocrats that don't understand trees. After you get your copy of the standards you'll see the names of the committee.

Get involved with ANSI. There is always a need for more volunteers. You may even find yourself as a voting member.

 

[jomoco]

Re: Basic Flaws in Mr. Rigguy\'s Cabling Design

[ QUOTE ]
Jomoco,


A blanket statement saying that lags shouldn't be used in softwood just doesn't make sense.



[/ QUOTE ]

It makes perfect sense to veteran cablers with decades of experience, no if ands or buts.

Now if you're hanging a birdfeeder?

All these J lag failures in softwoods were meant to hold, and failed for a reason.

Who exactly is served by allowing J lag usage in softwood trees?

Cause it sure as hell aint the tree or it's owner.

jomoco

 

[KyLimbwalker]

Re: Basic Flaws in Mr. Rigguy\'s Cabling Design

[ QUOTE ]

I see your point. I guess that my perception is that I used to only use them in smaller trees (River Birch, Pears...) and don't think they should be in Silver Maples, Tulips... Now I believe that a better solution for the smaller trees is the light duty cobra, and that is why I don't see the need for J Lags anymore.

[/ QUOTE ]

I have never used the Cobra system...I am open to using them as well, but my understanding was that they are not suitable for supporting inclusions.

In this respect, is cobra interchangeable with j-lags?

Sorry for the non- rigguy tangent, but this thread seems to be taking this tack.

 

[Blinky]

Re: Basic Flaws in Mr. Rigguy\'s Cabling Design

Chris,
Do you take the Cobra specs to mean no use on ANY inclusions? I thought it was appropriate for supporting unions with included bark that showed no sign of structural failure like cracking or weeping and stuff.


I guess time will tell on the Rigguy question. I think X has a point about fatigue once the cable is bound by wood growth. But I also think EHS is a different animal than common grade. I like'em.

 

[theXman]

Re: Basic Flaws in Mr. Rigguy\'s Cabling Design

I use EHS with deadends and thimbles.

I have always used the deadends and thimbles, I never have attempted to wrap common grade cable. From looking at old cables; It looks pretty simple to wrap the common grade cable, but I have never tried it and i doubt i will.

 

[jomoco]

Re: Basic Flaws in Mr. Rigguy\'s Cabling Design

There is an art to old school seven strand termination wrapping, and a special pair of pliers for doing it without getting bloody finger tips!

Done right with a thimble and eyebolt it's a very secure and relatively durable cable termination.

But the new preformed cable wraps are so much faster, and in my opinion more durable than old school cable wrapping that I haven't wrapped a cable in years and years. But it does still happen when my cable is so short it can't accommodate two 16 inch long cable grips.

I'm sure Buckingham probably still carries the 7 strand cable wrapping pliers.

jomoco

 

[theXman]

Re: Basic Flaws in Mr. Rigguy\'s Cabling Design

[ QUOTE ]

Get involved with ANSI. There is always a need for more volunteers. You may even find yourself as a voting member.

[/ QUOTE ]

I'd like to be involved.

I'd like to add that if j-lags are used, they must be put in far enough and finish the turn in a possition that there is not enough airspace for the dead-end eye to come unhooked.

Also, in the attempt to finish the lag with no threads showing or to reduce the air space, the installer should not turn the lag enough times in such a way as to damage the wood. If a conflict with the bark is going to happen, the installer should remove the lag and proceed to drill all the way through the limb and install an eye bolt.
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you like that picture jomoco?

It's an american beech tree. maybe was 150 to 200yrs old.

That particular cable was rusted off at the other end, i believe. Here is the other attachment point for that particular one. this cable was really low in the tree, less than half distance from the crotch they were trying to support. more pics of the old cables will follow since u like em.
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(sad story, i trimmed it in winter of 2007-08, and put in new cables. although in a bit of a decline for years due to ancient root girdling problems and half circumference dead; on every cut I made trimming the tissue was alive and good. All the buds in the tip top ends of the limbs were alive and waiting for spring. no tip dieback ANYWHERE. anyway, early and mid spring of 2008 was extremely dry, no rain. tree tried to put out leaves at that time but needed water. i didn't know it was happening, customer never said anything. i saw the tree from a distance one day in the later spring and said "oh crap! what's going on? visited the tree, half to 3/4 of the tree had small tiny leaves on it, still looked like they needed to expand. we got rain right then, for like 2 weeks, heavy rain, it was too late, the tree died. Since I knew personally that the tree was healthy in the dormant season, my opinion is that this big old tree needed to uptake a tremendous amount of water to be able to push out those new leaves. And a rare dry spring like that was too much for it to bare. Still makes me sick to think about it today; I put so much time and work in that tree, for very little pay (because i wanted to see it preserved and maintained, i bid it super cheap so the the customer was sure to have it done)

 

[theXman]

Re: Basic Flaws in Mr. Rigguy\'s Cabling Design

[ QUOTE ]
Excellent pic Xman!



jomoco

[/ QUOTE ]

here is some more for ya on the same American Beech tree.

ya pervert.

this cable was disconnected already too, but as you can see, it was more rust than anything, likely no metal fatigue so to speak, so it doesn't tell us much, except that the eye or lag was grown over nicely.

 

[theXman]

Re: Basic Flaws in Mr. Rigguy\'s Cabling Design

another,