Basic Flaws in Mr. Rigguy's Cabling Design

Re: Basic Flaws in Mr. Rigguy\'s Cabling Design

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I wouldn't use J-lags ever. What is the real benefit? I would only use them when you really didn't need them to hold too much, so again, why?

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Our logic follows as such:

1. J-lag systems are cheaper to the customer than EHS

2. We do not have perfect information, i.e. I only know when a risk is present (an inclusion) and the hazard of the potential target (open field vs house). I do not really know when or if an inclusion will fail.

3. J lags are appropriate (low cost) for low hazard inclusions, where failure of the inclusion would likely result only in the removal of that tree (not people or property).

4. High hazard situations require EHS or removal of the tree or branch in question. In these situations, I give the client both options and explain the risks/benefits of both.


I believe all inclusions may require some type of phsical support system. I believe J lags do still have a place in arboriculture as low cost, low hazard, risk mitigators.

I'll get off the J lag pulpit now.

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Re: Basic Flaws in Mr. Rigguy\'s Cabling Design

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I believe J lags do still have a place in arboriculture as low cost, low hazard, risk mitigators.


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I see your point. I guess that my perception is that I used to only use them in smaller trees (River Birch, Pears...) and don't think they should be in Silver Maples, Tulips... Now I believe that a better solution for the smaller trees is the light duty cobra, and that is why I don't see the need for J Lags anymore. No offense to anyone that uses them. I have a lot of thoughts that go against the more common practices out there.
 
Re: Basic Flaws in Mr. Rigguy\'s Cabling Design

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Now I believe that a better solution for the smaller trees is the light duty cobra, and that is why I don't see the need for J Lags anymore.

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It's like we were separated at birth, and then you became a great tree guy, and I slogged along using a pole saw in a tree, but now we both come to the same conclusion: Cobra Cables are a better solution for Birches and Pears!

I don't know whether that supports the "nurture" or the "nature" part of our collective upbringings, but it is something to think about.


SZ
 
Re: Basic Flaws in Mr. Rigguy\'s Cabling Design

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I believe the whole tree moving in unison <font color="red">makes it much more likely </font> that the whole tree get blown over. Parts of the tree moving in different directions disapates a lot of energy while the whole tree moving in unison is much like an organized 'heave ho' attempting to toss the tree.

So instead of saying the cable system was a benefit to the tree <font color="red"> it might be more accurate to say the cable system was a benefit to the limbs and leaders of the tree.</font> (Yes it's a nit pick but IMO an important nit to pick.)

I've seen videos of trees in high winds and there is no doubt that a lot of energy is disapated by parts of the tree moving in different directions reducing the overall force on the tree trying to push it over.

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<font color="red"> it might be more accurate to say the cable system was a benefit to the limbs and leaders of the tree. </font> I think I agree with this thought. good point i think.

<font color="red">I believe the whole tree moving in unison makes it much more likely that the whole tree get blown over. </font> I don't agree with the choice of words, "much more likely", but i think I will agree it wouldn't help the entire tree stay anchored.

I think you have a good point, thanks for bringing it up.
 
Re: Basic Flaws in Mr. Rigguy\'s Cabling Design

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Last week I saw a cable in a tree across from one of my jobs. After I talked with our crew I walked over to look. It was interesting and has some potential.

The tree had three cables in it. Someone had used plastic coated, 3/16", stranded/aircraft cable. They drilled through the stems in the best possible location. Then the cable was threaded through, a large diameter washer put on the cable, the cable made into a five inch diameter loop and the loop was secured with a U-clamp. The washer and U-clamp took the place of the Rigguy or Preformed strand clamp.

If the plastic sheath were stripped before the U-clamp were installed I could see using a similar setup. The right number and size clamps would be needed. This bears some consideration.

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on a small sour cherry tree last week, with such small diameter limbs I made up my own little cabling idea.

drilled through the stems, used aluminum ferrels and crimped them on the ends, much like a rigguy approach.

this was a very small tree, talking, 10 feet tall, but it gets loaded with cherries and breaks it's limbs. thinned it out and reduced it and put in two cables. I wrote, not to ANSI standards. It's such a small tree i did not see the need to do things by the book, chose a faster way with less hardware.
 
Re: Basic Flaws in Mr. Rigguy\'s Cabling Design

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I believe J lags do still have a place in arboriculture as low cost, low hazard, risk mitigators.


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I see your point. I guess that my perception is that I used to only use them in smaller trees (River Birch, Pears...) and don't think they should be in Silver Maples, Tulips... Now I believe that a better solution for the smaller trees is the light duty cobra, and that is why I don't see the need for J Lags anymore. No offense to anyone that uses them. I have a lot of thoughts that go against the more common practices out there.

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It's a shame you are wrong about something Mark.
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We do use them on big trees and try to follow the rule of 5/8" J-lags for up to 10" diam limbs.

I'll admit, i didn't always follow that rule in the past.

I will agree that through hardware is definitely much stronger.

I guess we use the j's because, like many things, if it is faster it is more attractive.

If i truely felt j's were significantly weaker, then i would never use them.

I bet that if a person put a j in incorrectly; failure would happen much more frequently that a through bolt. Say; not in line with the cable pull. they would pull out like a claw hammmer pulling out a nail.

maybe that's why J's have such a bad view by some people.

I just haven't seen failures in them as some of you talk about.
 
Re: Basic Flaws in Mr. Rigguy\'s Cabling Design

I have done mitigation that way in fruit trees as well, using cobra with out any shock absorber. Has anyone ever considered using cobra in large applications in place of static steel? May be a dumb question but I gotta know! Now, correct me please if I am wrong but I belive the elasticity of cobra is around 7.5%? This would work somewhat like a static and therefore allow for more applications with cobra then all the invasive steel. Am I making any sense? You all seem to know so much more then me about all this and I am starting to look at rigguy differantly. I realize some apps must be done with steel but maybe I should be considering cobra more often. I really like the cobra system.
 
Re: Basic Flaws in Mr. Rigguy\'s Cabling Design

Years ago I came across the idea of drilling a pilot hole and using cable/wire for bracing. I've done this using wire for arborvitae and small stuff. I poke the wire through then bend a pig's tail in the wire. The alternative is to use the flat arbo tape. Crimping ferrules would work too.

Like anything...take some time to look at the loads and risk of failure. Then design a good system. One of the biggest shortcomings of cabling installations is that they are put too low in the tree. Moving them higher gains mechanical advantage for the tree and reduces the load on the cable anchor.

Has anyone seen a tree with cables [correctly installed] fail completely...uprooting...and think that the tree may have survived the same event [wind/ice/etc.] without the cables?

I sure haven't...

After the dust settles and post-storm cleanup starts it's my experience that trees, even with poorly installed cable systems are a LOT more likely to survive intact than it's equal with no cable. My take-away from this is to encourage cabling. Of course, use the best materials...which is the basis of this thread, I know.

The problem with j-lags is that there are two timelines going on. ONe is the decay from installing the lag which weakens the anchor point. The other is the over-growing of the new wood around the lag which strengthens the anchor point. If a wind or load comes along before full wood strength is gained then the j-lag anchor fails. The use of through bolts seems to be the strongest anchor.

Does anyone else use a stacked washer and nut on the outboard side of throughbolts? Bob Wulkowicz shared the idea years ago and it makes a lot of sense. Since there is going to be a 'tube' of decay right under the washer against the tree there is a chance that the anchor could pull through...small, I know. By adding a second washer and nut the new, clear wood, will envelop the first washer then grow up and over the second washer which will be supported on solid wood. The cost is minimal and will add a lot of strength.
 
Re: Basic Flaws in Mr. Rigguy\'s Cabling Design

I've never done that, but it's a cool idea. Once the two washers are enveloped, they would make quite an anchor in the wood.

-Tom
 
Re: Basic Flaws in Mr. Rigguy\'s Cabling Design

Do you know if the use of J lags in softwood trees is expressly forbidden in the ANSI A300 cabling and bracing standards Tom?

I hate to think I'm kickin up dust by mistake, because one of the first rules of cabling I was taught was that J lags are no good in softwood trees, that they only worked in hardwood trees with no decay.

jomoco
 
Re: Basic Flaws in Mr. Rigguy\'s Cabling Design

Tom, I use arbortie on arborvitae all the time. I have used it on small red buds as well, just making sure I revisit from time to time to adjust so it wont girdle.

What about my question regarding cobra? Do you use it ever without the shockabsorber? Would you try it in a large app?
 
Re: Basic Flaws in Mr. Rigguy\'s Cabling Design

When I wired the arborvitae I didn't know about arbor tie. The girdling is a concern though.

My BMPs for cabling/bracing is hiding out now and the A300 standard is at the office so I can't reference them.

The idea that j-lags can't be used on softwoods is odd. I would base their use on how decay resistant the tree is and the holding power of the threads. These criteria don't fit into softwood/hardwood categories.

I've installed Cobra without the shockabsorber when there wasn't enough space in the span.

If you go to Cobra's website I think that you'll find that using Cobra as a static cable is accepted. You need to do your homework though and find out for yourself.
 
Re: Basic Flaws in Mr. Rigguy\'s Cabling Design

ansi a300 38.5 states lagthread hardware shall only be onstalled in sound wood... Also 40.4.1 states through bracing shall be used in decayed or weak wood chacteristic trees...just found it, nothing about softwood but I would think weak wood as the same.....

Thanks for the answer Tom, about the cobra I will look for their website
 
Re: Basic Flaws in Mr. Rigguy\'s Cabling Design

Since sound wood can be softwood, anyone using a J lag in a ficus or pine tree can do so and claim ANSI compliance despite a 90 percent failure history in softwood trees?

Houston........we have a problem.

jomoco
 
Re: Basic Flaws in Mr. Rigguy\'s Cabling Design

seems to be a bit confusing wouldnt you say? Although I think jomoco is right from the beginning, only j lags in hardwoods. That would be my 2cents.
 
Re: Basic Flaws in Mr. Rigguy\'s Cabling Design

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...despite a 90 percent failure history in softwood trees?

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Your observations seems like an extreme exaggeration to me.

Over the years I've NEVER seen a through bolt anchor fail but I have seen j-lags in hard and softwood fail. That enough for me to make the decision to not use j-lags except in very particular situation.

That said, I've done way more dynamic cables than static cables in the near past.
 
Re: Basic Flaws in Mr. Rigguy\'s Cabling Design

Can you give examples of cabling success using J lags in any softwood trees the way I can give you photographic evidence of J lag failure in both ficus and torrey pine?

jomoco
 
Re: Basic Flaws in Mr. Rigguy\'s Cabling Design

I would have to do some driving and photo shoots but I know of many many maples, tulips, and white pines that have j lag systems to this day. Not sure what company finally took the tulips down in Princeton NJ at the old Gov's manson, but I know couple trees there had like 5-8 j lags each and had to be over 10 years old, never failed. I even put 1 or 2 in myself back when I worked with Woodwinds.
 
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