ANSI Z133-2012 Crane Regulation Changes
- Thread starter chris_girard
- Start date
You east coast guys are unfamiliar with eucalyptus trees and their growth habits.
Big or even medium size eucs tend to put off seeds beneath them that sprout and grow into tall skinny trees reaching for sunlight called fastigiates in very large numbers.
One big euc can be surrounded by 30-40 fastigiates reaching for sunlight much like conifers do in a forest setting.
Most naval housing bases here in SoCal have slopes and medians that were hydroseeded with a slurry of euc seeds to stabilize the slopes and ensure quick green growth in their housing tracts.
But most euc species grow so fast and self propagate so aggressively that they get out of hand far faster than most tree species on the east coast.
Here they are almost considered an invasive tree species when left alone to do as they please.
So these removal contracts I spoke of consisted of a small percentage of medium eucs in the 24 inch dia range, while the vast majority of them were skinny tall fastigiates in the 6 inch dia range.
Getting 50-60 of these eucs a day was no super human feat by any means, and usually produced only 5-6 chiptruck loads a day running two chiptrucks, one bc1800, and one 30ton crane, with a 7 man crew.
Only a SoCal veteran arborist or Australian arborist will probably understand that knocking out that many eucs per day is no big deal and really quite common for a high production commercial crew.
it also might surprise you that a 60 ton track hoe could rip those stumps out faster than I could cut them down. In fact he could do 2-3 days worth of stumps(150) in one day.
Jomoco
Big or even medium size eucs tend to put off seeds beneath them that sprout and grow into tall skinny trees reaching for sunlight called fastigiates in very large numbers.
One big euc can be surrounded by 30-40 fastigiates reaching for sunlight much like conifers do in a forest setting.
Most naval housing bases here in SoCal have slopes and medians that were hydroseeded with a slurry of euc seeds to stabilize the slopes and ensure quick green growth in their housing tracts.
But most euc species grow so fast and self propagate so aggressively that they get out of hand far faster than most tree species on the east coast.
Here they are almost considered an invasive tree species when left alone to do as they please.
So these removal contracts I spoke of consisted of a small percentage of medium eucs in the 24 inch dia range, while the vast majority of them were skinny tall fastigiates in the 6 inch dia range.
Getting 50-60 of these eucs a day was no super human feat by any means, and usually produced only 5-6 chiptruck loads a day running two chiptrucks, one bc1800, and one 30ton crane, with a 7 man crew.
Only a SoCal veteran arborist or Australian arborist will probably understand that knocking out that many eucs per day is no big deal and really quite common for a high production commercial crew.
it also might surprise you that a 60 ton track hoe could rip those stumps out faster than I could cut them down. In fact he could do 2-3 days worth of stumps(150) in one day.
Jomoco
- Location
- Chapel Hill, NC
I can totally believe you can take down that many trees doing utility or forestry work but that's not what we're talking about here is it?
A 6" tree counts as a crane removal?
A 6" tree counts as a crane removal?
When they're picked off the slope and fed into a WTC with a crane?
Yes, I consider that a crane assisted removal.
It'd be kinda stupid to climb and choke those trees individually and crane them out one at a time when you can drop six and take them all out in one pick don't yu think?
Without it, there's no way to get the kinda production that made those contracts profitable and worth bidding and getting.
Mechanized removals are hard to compete against these days period.
Jomoco
Yes, I consider that a crane assisted removal.
It'd be kinda stupid to climb and choke those trees individually and crane them out one at a time when you can drop six and take them all out in one pick don't yu think?
Without it, there's no way to get the kinda production that made those contracts profitable and worth bidding and getting.
Mechanized removals are hard to compete against these days period.
Jomoco
Jay C, I see you retracted your claim to 10,000 residential crane removals a year. Maybe you did the math after you posted. Glad to see you decieded to get off the "My boom is bigger than your boom" band wagon.
Jo, I think on the east coast they call 6" dia trees big saplings or nursery stock. I don't condider yarding trees with a crane the same as a crane removal. The op was regarding crane T.I.P.s, were you tied into the crane on your 10,000 crane removals?
Let's get back to the topic, there are some diamonds in this dirt somewhere.
Let's take the rest over to the the tree free forum
Jo, I think on the east coast they call 6" dia trees big saplings or nursery stock. I don't condider yarding trees with a crane the same as a crane removal. The op was regarding crane T.I.P.s, were you tied into the crane on your 10,000 crane removals?
Let's get back to the topic, there are some diamonds in this dirt somewhere.
Let's take the rest over to the the tree free forum
- Location
- South Carolina (formally from MA)
[ QUOTE ]
Jay C, I see you retracted your claim to 10,000 residential crane removals a year. Maybe you did the math after you posted. Glad to see you decieded to get off the "My boom is bigger than your boom" band wagon.
Jo, I think on the east coast they call 6" dia trees big saplings or nursery stock. I don't condider yarding trees with a crane the same as a crane removal. The op was regarding crane T.I.P.s, were you tied into the crane on your 10,000 crane removals?
Let's get back to the topic, there are some diamonds in this dirt somewhere.
Let's take the rest over to the the tree free forum
[/ QUOTE ]
I erased my post because this whole thing is getting stupid. I did not retract any claim...i never said i did 10,000 removals a year. I simply posted eariler in this thread that in the course of doing 10's of thousands of removals my gear had been caught a few times (meaning infrequently) but when it does happen and the crane op doesn't notice my sig. (no radio) i could b injured with the new double tie in requirement. I also apologized earlier for sounding like a braggart, for that was not my intention.
I do agree with Jo though. There are many days i do 30-50 large tree removals in a day on multiple res properties with a crane, trailer, whole tree chipper. I don't work for a company...companies hire me when they put together a high production day. Because of my speed and good rep. i have too much work. I work 6-7 days a week year round. Multiply that by 18 yrs...my math is an understatement.
Jay C, I see you retracted your claim to 10,000 residential crane removals a year. Maybe you did the math after you posted. Glad to see you decieded to get off the "My boom is bigger than your boom" band wagon.
Jo, I think on the east coast they call 6" dia trees big saplings or nursery stock. I don't condider yarding trees with a crane the same as a crane removal. The op was regarding crane T.I.P.s, were you tied into the crane on your 10,000 crane removals?
Let's get back to the topic, there are some diamonds in this dirt somewhere.
Let's take the rest over to the the tree free forum
[/ QUOTE ]
I erased my post because this whole thing is getting stupid. I did not retract any claim...i never said i did 10,000 removals a year. I simply posted eariler in this thread that in the course of doing 10's of thousands of removals my gear had been caught a few times (meaning infrequently) but when it does happen and the crane op doesn't notice my sig. (no radio) i could b injured with the new double tie in requirement. I also apologized earlier for sounding like a braggart, for that was not my intention.
I do agree with Jo though. There are many days i do 30-50 large tree removals in a day on multiple res properties with a crane, trailer, whole tree chipper. I don't work for a company...companies hire me when they put together a high production day. Because of my speed and good rep. i have too much work. I work 6-7 days a week year round. Multiply that by 18 yrs...my math is an understatement.
[ QUOTE ]
Jay C, I see you retracted your claim to 10,000 residential crane removals a year. Maybe you did the math after you posted. Glad to see you decieded to get off the "My boom is bigger than your boom" band wagon.
Jo, I think on the east coast they call 6" dia trees big saplings or nursery stock. I don't condider yarding trees with a crane the same as a crane removal. The op was regarding crane T.I.P.s, were you tied into the crane on your 10,000 crane removals?
Let's get back to the topic, there are some diamonds in this dirt somewhere.
Let's take the rest over to the the tree free forum
[/ QUOTE ]
Obviously not tied into the crane on every tree that particular year.
But since I've been doing crane removals for over twenty years, I do claim to have done well in excess of 10K crane removals where I was tied into the crane at some point in each tree over the course of my career.
Unlike many of you, I like to be placed into the tree on a central optimum TIP in decurrent removals, then climb out to choke each pick, staying in the tree as the pick is taken to the LZ. Then climbing out to the next pick's choke point so the CO knows where I want to place the next choker. Most of the time I'm already there waiting for him.
All this up and down into and out of the tree ain't my style, even in an excurrent removal. The only time I play that game is in a dead hollow removal unsafe for me to tie into.
The vast majority of my crane picks are done with one wire rope choker point to keep picks moving towards the LZ. Many tumble, some balance, some are nice vertical picks. As long as I know what each pick is going to do and communicate that to the CO so he knows how to react, things move right along towards the LZ quite rapidly.
Time is money in this biz whether you guys admit it or not. I love Reg's vids as much as the next guy. But his styles and methods are nothing like mine. I keep almost every pick actively moving towards the LZ unless there's a specific target to be avoided.
Staying well within the crane's load chart limit on each pick is the key to high production and safe crane operations in my opinion. Radio communication with the CO is critical to learning how much each pick weighs. with a good CO giving you feedback on each pick, along with you telling the CO what you know each pick will do, butt hang, balance or tip tie vertically etc. You'll soon find that things move along quite quickly and smoothly with a minimum of chatter because you and the CO know how each operates and can anticipate what each others needs in each situation.
Jomoco
Jay C, I see you retracted your claim to 10,000 residential crane removals a year. Maybe you did the math after you posted. Glad to see you decieded to get off the "My boom is bigger than your boom" band wagon.
Jo, I think on the east coast they call 6" dia trees big saplings or nursery stock. I don't condider yarding trees with a crane the same as a crane removal. The op was regarding crane T.I.P.s, were you tied into the crane on your 10,000 crane removals?
Let's get back to the topic, there are some diamonds in this dirt somewhere.
Let's take the rest over to the the tree free forum
[/ QUOTE ]
Obviously not tied into the crane on every tree that particular year.
But since I've been doing crane removals for over twenty years, I do claim to have done well in excess of 10K crane removals where I was tied into the crane at some point in each tree over the course of my career.
Unlike many of you, I like to be placed into the tree on a central optimum TIP in decurrent removals, then climb out to choke each pick, staying in the tree as the pick is taken to the LZ. Then climbing out to the next pick's choke point so the CO knows where I want to place the next choker. Most of the time I'm already there waiting for him.
All this up and down into and out of the tree ain't my style, even in an excurrent removal. The only time I play that game is in a dead hollow removal unsafe for me to tie into.
The vast majority of my crane picks are done with one wire rope choker point to keep picks moving towards the LZ. Many tumble, some balance, some are nice vertical picks. As long as I know what each pick is going to do and communicate that to the CO so he knows how to react, things move right along towards the LZ quite rapidly.
Time is money in this biz whether you guys admit it or not. I love Reg's vids as much as the next guy. But his styles and methods are nothing like mine. I keep almost every pick actively moving towards the LZ unless there's a specific target to be avoided.
Staying well within the crane's load chart limit on each pick is the key to high production and safe crane operations in my opinion. Radio communication with the CO is critical to learning how much each pick weighs. with a good CO giving you feedback on each pick, along with you telling the CO what you know each pick will do, butt hang, balance or tip tie vertically etc. You'll soon find that things move along quite quickly and smoothly with a minimum of chatter because you and the CO know how each operates and can anticipate what each others needs in each situation.
Jomoco
- Location
- Chapel Hill, NC
It never occurred to me to get out of a live tree for a pick. i just did my first one and I did the same, I was climbing while the piece was flying away so i could be ready when the hook came back.
We used a heavy crane and one piece rolled, I didn't like it but the CO said we we well inside the load chart so it was no biggie. I think he's used to seeing pieces flip.
The thing I took from that though was, since we had lots of capacity to handle the dynamic (flipping) load I could've just gone lower and cut bigger and it would've stayed static.
That's just a guess from a crane rookie though.
We used a heavy crane and one piece rolled, I didn't like it but the CO said we we well inside the load chart so it was no biggie. I think he's used to seeing pieces flip.
The thing I took from that though was, since we had lots of capacity to handle the dynamic (flipping) load I could've just gone lower and cut bigger and it would've stayed static.
That's just a guess from a crane rookie though.
]
I erased my post because this whole thing is getting stupid. I did not retract any claim...i never said i did 10,000 removals a year.
There are many days i do 30-50 large tree removals in a day on multiple res properties with a crane, trailer, whole tree chipper. I don't work for a company...companies hire me when they put together a high production day. Because of my speed and good rep. i have too much work. I work 6-7 days a week year round. Multiply that by 18 yrs...my math is an understatement.
[/ QUOTE ]
let's see:
30-50 aveerage is 40 trees per day
6-7 average is 6.5 days per week
40 x 6.5 = 260 x 52 weeks = 13,520 per year
30 trees in one 12 hour day would mean 2.5 trees every hour no breaks, no travel time. Occasionally, yes it is posible in the right situation. regularly, i doubt it. You did say large trees, you must need a bunch of chip trucks to haul 30 large trees worth of chips. Or is large like Jo's 6" trees?
Let's get realilistic.
I'm done now, that's all.
I erased my post because this whole thing is getting stupid. I did not retract any claim...i never said i did 10,000 removals a year.
There are many days i do 30-50 large tree removals in a day on multiple res properties with a crane, trailer, whole tree chipper. I don't work for a company...companies hire me when they put together a high production day. Because of my speed and good rep. i have too much work. I work 6-7 days a week year round. Multiply that by 18 yrs...my math is an understatement.
[/ QUOTE ]
let's see:
30-50 aveerage is 40 trees per day
6-7 average is 6.5 days per week
40 x 6.5 = 260 x 52 weeks = 13,520 per year
30 trees in one 12 hour day would mean 2.5 trees every hour no breaks, no travel time. Occasionally, yes it is posible in the right situation. regularly, i doubt it. You did say large trees, you must need a bunch of chip trucks to haul 30 large trees worth of chips. Or is large like Jo's 6" trees?
Let's get realilistic.
I'm done now, that's all.
I'm glad your first crane job went well Blinky, good job.
The best advice I have for crane removal climbers is to always have an escape route planned ahead of time. Don't lock yourself into a position you can't get out of quickly, very quickly. Never make a release cut with just your lanyard around the spar. Always have your climbline backing it up so you can unclip that lanyard quickly and bail the hell outta there at the drop of a hat.
In reality I think crane work is dangerous as hell, particularly for the climber.
Lifeline routing is critical, and can be done in such a way that it's both shielded from the pick, and ideally placed for a quick escape from the action should it come your way.
Congrats on your first crane job Blinky.
Jomoco
The best advice I have for crane removal climbers is to always have an escape route planned ahead of time. Don't lock yourself into a position you can't get out of quickly, very quickly. Never make a release cut with just your lanyard around the spar. Always have your climbline backing it up so you can unclip that lanyard quickly and bail the hell outta there at the drop of a hat.
In reality I think crane work is dangerous as hell, particularly for the climber.
Lifeline routing is critical, and can be done in such a way that it's both shielded from the pick, and ideally placed for a quick escape from the action should it come your way.
Congrats on your first crane job Blinky.
Jomoco
- Location
- Chapel Hill, NC
Thank you Jo. This is my first ever crane cut. Makes me never want to climb and rig another pine. We did 4 90' pines in 9 picks.
The flip happened on a red oak about 120' or 130' from the pin. I'm persuaded, I'm moving to the dark side. I've never gotten so much work done with everyone just working a normal pace. It was sweet.
I know the cut is high, I didn't know for sure what would happen so I gave myself room to duck... didn't have to, the CO was a real pro.
It also never occurred to me to work with just a lanyard. I used my regular DdRT like working a spar. Not having an escape seems pointless.
The flip happened on a red oak about 120' or 130' from the pin. I'm persuaded, I'm moving to the dark side. I've never gotten so much work done with everyone just working a normal pace. It was sweet.
I know the cut is high, I didn't know for sure what would happen so I gave myself room to duck... didn't have to, the CO was a real pro.
It also never occurred to me to work with just a lanyard. I used my regular DdRT like working a spar. Not having an escape seems pointless.
You're lookin real good up there Blinky, nice job.
I make the same mistake of opening my mouth while cutting sometimes too! Getting a piece of woodchip pasted to your tonsils really sucks though!
So now I wear cowboy bandannas over my mouth and nose while cutting!
jomoco
I make the same mistake of opening my mouth while cutting sometimes too! Getting a piece of woodchip pasted to your tonsils really sucks though!
So now I wear cowboy bandannas over my mouth and nose while cutting!
jomoco
- Location
- San Diego, Ca. North county
Got a big job next Tuesday in Del Mar. 3 euc's behind a clubhouse and pool. I think it is about 217' of stick. 90 ton, Two day job. What sucks is not knowing enough guys that want wood. Hate to dump it and dont want to go all the way out to the casinos of Alpine to dump it for free.
PM me Jeff and I'll hook you up with the Van Winkle Brothers.
Great guys that will come to you if you have enough euc?
Jomoco
Great guys that will come to you if you have enough euc?
Jomoco
- Location
- Billerica, MA
I have never really giving any thought to how many trees I have taken down, climbed, pruned…whatever. I see no real reason to question the 10,000 removal number that was claimed. I just don’t think it adds much. Its sort of like me claiming I pruned 10’s of thousands of trees in a few months in 2007 with one crew.
http://www.facebook.com/video/video.php?v=10150824709875446&saved
sure, the word pruning is used very loosely and no matter how many miles of that ROW project you drove I promise you won’t find one proper pruning cut.
The same is with crane work, we only took down two trees this day
http://www.facebook.com/media/set/?set=a...e=3&theater
On this job we took down about 100 trees in two days
http://www.facebook.com/media/set/?set=a.10150738078830446.463390.277283385445&type=3
Trying to say one is better than the other is a pointless argument.
Back on topic, I agree with the concern over a second attachment point when a climber is hoisted into a tree with the crane. I see no harm in it when a climber is being hoisted in wide open air but if a climber is being lifted though the tree the chance of the climber getting caught on a limb and injured before the operator stops cabling up is a serious concern. Even radios, signal men, and direct sight don’t eliminate this risk, it only takes a second for the winch to apply serious force, I like the climber to have the freedom to rappel at any second to avoid danger.
This situation also highlights the advantage to running a crane with a functioning LMAP system. The system on our crane reads in 100 lb increments, there have been many times when I have noticed a small spike in the load on the computer before the climber has noticed the ball being hung up or whatever it may be causing the issue. I know it’s a small thing but it’s another indicator to help you find issues before they become serious.
http://www.facebook.com/video/video.php?v=10150824709875446&saved
sure, the word pruning is used very loosely and no matter how many miles of that ROW project you drove I promise you won’t find one proper pruning cut.
The same is with crane work, we only took down two trees this day
http://www.facebook.com/media/set/?set=a...e=3&theater
On this job we took down about 100 trees in two days
http://www.facebook.com/media/set/?set=a.10150738078830446.463390.277283385445&type=3
Trying to say one is better than the other is a pointless argument.
Back on topic, I agree with the concern over a second attachment point when a climber is hoisted into a tree with the crane. I see no harm in it when a climber is being hoisted in wide open air but if a climber is being lifted though the tree the chance of the climber getting caught on a limb and injured before the operator stops cabling up is a serious concern. Even radios, signal men, and direct sight don’t eliminate this risk, it only takes a second for the winch to apply serious force, I like the climber to have the freedom to rappel at any second to avoid danger.
This situation also highlights the advantage to running a crane with a functioning LMAP system. The system on our crane reads in 100 lb increments, there have been many times when I have noticed a small spike in the load on the computer before the climber has noticed the ball being hung up or whatever it may be causing the issue. I know it’s a small thing but it’s another indicator to help you find issues before they become serious.
- Location
- Billerica, MA
[ QUOTE ]
Im with dave on this one as far as lifting the climber out side the tree it is much safer.
[/ QUOTE ]
rob, the real issue i have is the new ANSI regs require the climber to have 2 attachment points during any climber hoisting. If the climber is flying though the air nowhere near there tree i can see the safety advantage to this. If the ball has been lowered through the tree or if the climber is being picked up inside of the tree and then being hoisted through the tree with their climbing line and presumably a buck strap attached to the ball, hook, load line, i see and increased risk of injury from the climber getting stuck on something, since the climber no longer has the ability to grab their friction hitch and rappel to avoid being torn in half, since the climber no longer has the ability to grab their friction hitch and rappel to avoid being torn in half
Im with dave on this one as far as lifting the climber out side the tree it is much safer.
[/ QUOTE ]
rob, the real issue i have is the new ANSI regs require the climber to have 2 attachment points during any climber hoisting. If the climber is flying though the air nowhere near there tree i can see the safety advantage to this. If the ball has been lowered through the tree or if the climber is being picked up inside of the tree and then being hoisted through the tree with their climbing line and presumably a buck strap attached to the ball, hook, load line, i see and increased risk of injury from the climber getting stuck on something, since the climber no longer has the ability to grab their friction hitch and rappel to avoid being torn in half, since the climber no longer has the ability to grab their friction hitch and rappel to avoid being torn in half
- Location
- Billerica, MA
It is important to remember all the headway the Z133 committee has accomplished, it wasn’t that long ago that there was nothing in writing anywhere that said there was any safe method of lifting a climber into a tree that didn’t involve a man basket. Those members of the tree industry that sit on that committee have to fight against all of the construction industry regulations that were cut and pasted into the tree regs. They have made some good headway and have moved the Z133 in the right direction
- Location
- South Carolina (formally from MA)
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Im with dave on this one as far as lifting the climber out side the tree it is much safer.
[/ QUOTE ]
rob, the real issue i have is the new ANSI regs require the climber to have 2 attachment points during any climber hoisting. If the climber is flying though the air nowhere near there tree i can see the safety advantage to this. If the ball has been lowered through the tree or if the climber is being picked up inside of the tree and then being hoisted through the tree with their climbing line and presumably a buck strap attached to the ball, hook, load line, i see and increased risk of injury from the climber getting stuck on something, since the climber no longer has the ability to grab their friction hitch and rappel to avoid being torn in half, since the climber no longer has the ability to grab their friction hitch and rappel to avoid being torn in half
[/ QUOTE ]
Thank you Dave for replying to the actual point of my original post.
I agree with the decision to make the work safer...i think maybe another option could be considered. Last summer a very experienced climber i used to work with and very skilled crane operator that i climbed off his crane on a regular basis died as a result of an accident similar to what could happen with the 'double tie in on assent'
regulation.
I am sure with all the experienced minds on this site a suggestion for an alternate solution could be easily reached
[ QUOTE ]
Im with dave on this one as far as lifting the climber out side the tree it is much safer.
[/ QUOTE ]
rob, the real issue i have is the new ANSI regs require the climber to have 2 attachment points during any climber hoisting. If the climber is flying though the air nowhere near there tree i can see the safety advantage to this. If the ball has been lowered through the tree or if the climber is being picked up inside of the tree and then being hoisted through the tree with their climbing line and presumably a buck strap attached to the ball, hook, load line, i see and increased risk of injury from the climber getting stuck on something, since the climber no longer has the ability to grab their friction hitch and rappel to avoid being torn in half, since the climber no longer has the ability to grab their friction hitch and rappel to avoid being torn in half
[/ QUOTE ]
Thank you Dave for replying to the actual point of my original post.
I agree with the decision to make the work safer...i think maybe another option could be considered. Last summer a very experienced climber i used to work with and very skilled crane operator that i climbed off his crane on a regular basis died as a result of an accident similar to what could happen with the 'double tie in on assent'
regulation.
I am sure with all the experienced minds on this site a suggestion for an alternate solution could be easily reached
- Location
- South Carolina (formally from MA)
[ QUOTE ]
It is important to remember all the headway the Z133 committee has accomplished, it wasn’t that long ago that there was nothing in writing anywhere that said there was any safe method of lifting a climber into a tree that didn’t involve a man basket. Those members of the tree industry that sit on that committee have to fight against all of the construction industry regulations that were cut and pasted into the tree regs. They have made some good headway and have moved the Z133 in the right direction
[/ QUOTE ]
Very well said. It is a difficult to satisfy everyone. Luckily we have conscientious professionals on our side.
It is important to remember all the headway the Z133 committee has accomplished, it wasn’t that long ago that there was nothing in writing anywhere that said there was any safe method of lifting a climber into a tree that didn’t involve a man basket. Those members of the tree industry that sit on that committee have to fight against all of the construction industry regulations that were cut and pasted into the tree regs. They have made some good headway and have moved the Z133 in the right direction
[/ QUOTE ]
Very well said. It is a difficult to satisfy everyone. Luckily we have conscientious professionals on our side.
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